View source for Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/2008/June

{{Archive}}
[[Category:WikiProject Stub sorting archives: Proposals 2008|06]]
This is an archive of discussions from [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals]] for the month of June 2008. Please move completed June discussions to this page as they are closed, add discussion headers to each proposal showing the result, and leave incomplete discussions on the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals|Proposals]] page. After June, the remainder of the discussions will be moved to this page, whether stub types have been created or not. 

Those who create a stub template/cat should be responsible for moving the discussion here and listing the stub type in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive|archive summary]].

'''Stub proposers please note''': Items tagged as "nocreate" or "no consensus" are welcome for re-proposal if and when circumstances are auspicious.

*Discussion headers: 
**{{tl|sfp create}}
**{{tl|sfp nocreate}}
**{{tl|sfp other}} (for no consensus) 
**{{tl|sfp top}} for customized result description (use <nowiki>{{sfp top|result}}</nowiki>).
*Discussion footer: {{tl|sfd bottom}}

==={{cl|Israeli musical group stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
I was just adding to the article [[Monotonix]], an Israeli band, when I decided to see if there was a specific stub for Israeli bands. Noting that the existing stubs are as far flung as Danish and Korean bands, I nearly created it before noticing this area. There are 61 articles in the category for Israeli musical groups with four subcategories and surely many of those can only be stub class. [[User:Red157|'''<span style="color:red;">Red157</span>''']]([[User talk:Red157|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Red157|contribs]]) 23:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:Changed stub name to what the cat would be, not the actual stub. [[User:Red157|'''<span style="color:red;">Red157</span>''']]([[User talk:Red157|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Red157|contribs]]) 00:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
*I'd certainly '''support''' an upmerged template ({{tl|Israel-band-stub}}) - if there prove to be 60 or more stubs using it, a category could easily be speedied later. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 03:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
*Speedy an upmerged template, per Grutification, and the existing by-country pattern.  A stubsense/catscan/(whatever tool actually works this week) maven may be able to give you a fairly accurate count in advance, though, if you're desperate for the category too.  (To quibble, the concept of a "stub class article" is one that this project's never quite sussed out what it's supposed to mean, and the WP1.0ers have (IMO) never been in the least clear on, vis a vis "stub" per say, though it would be fair to say that for 99% of people, and 99% of articles, the two are treated as being interchangeable.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
:I hope I've done correct in both creating the template ({{tl|Israel-band-stub}}) and the category ({{cl|Israeli musical group stubs}}). All that is left is for me to start adding the stubs to it. I can't say everything went to plan; due to carelessness on my part I created {{cl|Israel musical group stubs}} by accident. [[User:Red157|'''<span style="color:red;">Red157</span>''']]([[User talk:Red157|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Red157|contribs]]) 16:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
::Neither of those categories would have been in ''my'' plan, but I've speedied the latter, at least.  As things are far from clear on the "numerosity" issue, I would recommend revisiting upmerger fairly soon, if this doesn't show at least ''some'' growth, beyond the one article we've heard of, and that now populates the type.  (One might also mention the small matter of the discussion period, though admittedly I did suggest a ''partial'' speedying.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
:::In fact, it was clear from the comments above that the template should have been upmerged (i.e., not have its own category). Still, we'll see if it grows to threshold - if not, it may need to be upmerged later. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't think it was ''entirely'' clear, as there seemed to be some sort of stream of consciousness argument that there must be 60 of them, someplace.  But it was a little too speculative-sounding for my money.  Still waiting hopefully for that somewhat more concrete estimate...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::I apologise for any rashness on my part. I'm still a relative youth in this game and have always learned by doing on wikipedia, but I completely understanding at least removing the category if I don't find enough stubs to be placed in there. Though I was right enough in thinking most Israeli band articles are what I'd judge as stubs, just don't know if there's enough of them. [[User:Red157|'''<span style="color:red;">Red157</span>''']]([[User talk:Red157|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Red157|contribs]]) 21:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::No worries, no-one died.  There's 52 in there now (nice sorting job), which to use the technical term is "pretty darn close to 60", so I'd suggest we put any immediate notions of upmerger on hold, in the hopes that another eight turn up on some reasonable timeframe.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 22:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Sounds fair enough to me. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|European tennis biography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Upmerge following, S2 speedy
*{{tl|CzechRepublic-tennis-bio-stub}} (30)
*{{tl|Germany-tennis-bio-stub}} (50)
*{{tl|Spain-tennis-bio-stub}} (44)
[[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 19:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
:Speedy these, and the two below.  Support any country-level levels anyone is minded to create for both.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|European boxing biography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
*{{tl|Italy-boxing-bio-stub}}/{{cl|Italian boxing biography stubs}} (61) &mdash; un-upmerge S1 Speedy 
*{{tl|France-boxing-bio-stub}} (35) &mdash; upmerge S2 Speedy
[[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 19:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|Fiddler stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create upmerged template}}
Looking through the fiddler articles I see quite a few stubs (see for example [[:category:Fiddlers by nationality]]; the [[Talk:List of fiddlers#Notable recorded fiddlers from Fiddle article|List of fiddlers talk page]] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fiddlers&diff=214839482&oldid=214836029 historical changes] suggest that there are many more on the way)
. The most appropriate stub category currently available is [[:category:Violinist stubs|Violinist stubs]], but there are already nearly 300 "violinist" stubs, of which only a handful are fiddlers'. The editor population attracted to the "violinist" label, and the category's size, make me think that fiddler stub expansion won't go anywhere without its own category. — [[User:Eitch|eitc]][[User_talk:Eitch|'''h''']] 06:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
*Slightly cart before the horse, if the stub articles don't even ''exist'' yet, much less be getting much attention for expansion:  see the "numerosity" clause in the stub type creation criteria.  However, if the music editors are satisfied this is a "clean" distinction in scope, I would suggest that an upmerged template be appropriate, until there's enough for a separate category.  (i.e., 60 of 'em.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 08:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
::It's true, but it's so much less work to say, in six months or something "Hey, this never did get populated... let's ditch it" than to call them all violinists, keep a count in userspace or something, and then go back through the stubs and re-sort them. ... An upmerged template ''sounds'' good, but I can't find anything that tells me what it is or how to do it. Tips? — [[User:Eitch|eitc]][[User_talk:Eitch|'''h''']] 02:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Created as {{tl|fiddler-stub}}.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 03:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|English people stubs}} subtypes===
{{sfp create}}
This oversized and essentially useless category continues to plague us (and continues to be useless).  Here's some possibilities, and their estimated sizes from the category tree:
*{{cl|English business biography stubs}} 95
*{{cl|English scientist stubs}} 195
*{{cl|English military personnel stubs}} 114
I'd take the numbers with a pinch of salt in this case, as many of them aren't in the "English" portion of the permcat tree, just stub-tagged that way, but they seem to at least indicate fairly strong prospects of viability.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:Looking at them as a split of the english bios all look reasonble, looking from the other end I would rather scientists and military were split along different lines, but these are needed to split English people and not the other end so suppoprt. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 08:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::Believe me, that's the only reason I'm proposing them.  I rather wish the parent would just go away, but it resolutely sits there, being oversized and such.  The worst of it is that there's such a large number of editors that ''insist'' on eradicating any trace of "British" identify from biographical articles that it'll continues to grow.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|transmembrane receptor stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Don't even ask me exactly what these are...  I just know we have a lot of 'em!  The {{cl|membrane protein stubs}} are very oversized;  this would seem to split 'em roughly in two.  I'll try to find a WPJ that would be able to tell if this makes any sense.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 12:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>


==={{cl|Brazilian Roman Catholic diocese stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
The mystery of why {{cl|Brazil stubs}} got so big is solved:  there's 150 of these.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:Approved back in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/February_2008#Brazil_Roman_Catholic_diocese_stub|February]]. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|architectural element stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as architecture-element-stub}}
Another long-standing oversized parent, I think this would possibly solve that at a stroke.  There's anywhere up to 211 of these, if you believe the category hierarchy implicitly, but at any rate there's at least 65 that are directly in the permcat.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:Support, and a quick glance at the heirachy seems to suggest that the heirachy is not completly messed up. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 14:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::Support. Template would be {{tl|Architecture-element-stub}}, I take it? We use {{tl|Architecture-stub}} for the main form, and "Element-architecture-stub" sounds like it would have something to do with atomic physics. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 01:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Not very consistent with the idea of arch/architecture being a "hierarchical element", though, is it?  Anyway, stable door, etc.  I won't object if anyone moves it around to taste (within reason).  Might be worth keeping redirects.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Entirely consistent with the various foo-term-stub types, I would have thought. In any case, we deliberately don't use "arch" any more, since it's ambiguous (these could be elements of arches!). Off to SFD it is... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::Nothing like a mid-discussion change of venue to "clarify" matters.  But to respond to your additional tangent:  {{tl|term-stub}} ''would'' be a logical parent, though it doesn't actually exist.  (It could just be a redirect to {{tl|vocab-stub}}, actually.)  This would most definitely not be:  the "parent" is arch(itecture).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 12:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::I thought the discussion was pretty much finished - you pretty much indicated that you didn't mind if someone carted it off for a renaming, and the "stable door" comment fairly clearly suggested that it was all done and dusted. As to term-stub, that's pretty much my point. Geo-term-stub's logical parent is geo-stub - they relate more to the sort of editors who deal with geography than the sort of editors who deal with terminology in general, and in any case, there's no such template as term-stub. In exactly the same way, architecture-element-stub's logical parent is architecture-stub. We don't always use the part of the templatee name closest to the word stub as the principal parent. We ''usually'' do, but there are definite exceptions, usually for very good reasons (the various tv-station-stub types and tv-prog-stub types are also examples of this). In this case, there is a very good reasons. These aren't "element architecture stubs" - they don't have anything to do with the architecture of elements at all - we use various atomic physics stubs for that. No, this is for acrhitectural elements, as the category says. As such, calling it architecture-element-stub makes perfect sense. It also retains a logical grammatical order from the category - something you are usually very much in favour of. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 13:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|New Zealand government stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Did we approve this already?  Rings a bell from someplace, seems to be 62 of them.  As noted, parent oversized.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:You're probably thinking of {{cl|New Zealand politics stubs}}, which got made about a month back. '''Support''', anyway. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::Possibly, though I thought I'd thought of thinking of that.  As it were.  It also occurred to me that it was the same sixty-odd articles getting triple-stubbed, but they do seem to actually be distinct.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::Gah - have you been listening to the Chills' song "I think I thought I'd something else to think about" again? :) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|passport stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Not one that would have occurred to me, but there seem to be exactly 60 of these in the oversized {{cl|government stubs}}.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:We have articles about passports? Looks like it's needed so '''support''' [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>


==={{cl|Indian poet stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
{{cl|poet stubs}} are oversized -- see [[WT:WSS/T]] for the gory details -- the Indians seem to be the only new nationality that're viable, at 64.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 15:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''support''' and template for any other nationality that is viable.  Is it worth splitting out by continent? [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|French medical biography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
73 of these, parent is oversized.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''support'''AS with Poets below is it worth templates for other large countries and by continent categories.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|20th century short story stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as -collection-}}
{{cl|story stubs}} is oversized, this is the most sensible subcat I can find; would be at least 275 of them.  Nothing else by-genre seems to work (although, dismayingly, {{cl|short_stories_by_Orson_Scott_Card}} is responsible for 50 of these).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:What about {{tl|story-collection-stub}}? We have {{tl|poetry-collection-stub}} which seems to help with that category. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::I'd be cool with that, if the population in that category tree really ''are'' collections, and not the sort of traditionally-broken permcat stuff like "stories ''by'' collection".  Or it turns out to be otherwise populable.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Holy Toledo. There are at least 74 items of 512K or fewer than 4 links, and 173 of 1000K, which would qualify for {{tl|story-collection-stub}}. I will run some numbers on possible sf- and fantasy- types and get back to you. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 19:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::We already have those.  Or did you mean sub-sub types for sf collections?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 19:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::collections...[[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 20:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::Isn't that a bit ambitious if there's "only" 200ish in total?  But perhaps just create the upmerged templates now, and it'll all come out in the wash...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::All that means is that I did a cursory count of articles under 3 levels of {{cl|Short story collections}}. If I remove 173 items from {{cl|Story stubs}}, isn't that at least a start? I can probably find more once CatScan comes back up; some of them are tucked into {{cl|Anthology book stubs}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 22:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I meant upmerged templates for those latter two.  I'm positively eager to see the collections as a whole split out.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 23:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Okey dokey, then for clarity: {{tl|story-collection-stub}} & {{cl|Short story collection stubs}}, with upmerged {{tl|fantasy-story-collection-stub}} and {{tl|sf-collection-stub}}, right? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 22:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes, precisely.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{tl|kabbalah-stub}} {{cl|Kabbalah stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
At the moment these stubs are upmerged to [[:Category:Judaism stubs]], but there are now 71 so I propose Speedy creation (S1).[[User:Kathleen.wright5|Kathleen.wright5]] 06:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
*Support speedying.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 12:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|Riot-control stubs}}===
{{sfp top|taken to sfd}}
[[:Category:Law enforcement stubs]] currently has 733 members and could usefully be split. I have made a new stub-template [[Template:Riot-control-stub]]. Is it any use to you? [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 10:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
*It certainly not without its issues...  I've tried to standardise the naming and coding somewhat.  Beyond that, we have no {{cl|riot control}} permcat, so the scope doesn't seem as cut and dried as one might wish;  for that reason, it's also tricky to see whether it's going to be populable.  Any idea about that yourself?
*On the broader question of what to do about the law enforcement stubs:  first, enjoy our 67 articles worth of theoretical headroom.  It might not be a lot, but it leaves it in better shape than over 150 others that I'd be more concerned about tackling first.  However, if they are to be split, I'd suggest instead looking at a split by country (US- and UK-, unsurprisingly), or else by splitting about the bios and orgs.  Each of those looks to be numerically feasible.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 13:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
*Pages [[ARWEN 37]] and [[ARWEN ACE]] could be in class <nowiki>{{Riotcontrol-stub}}</nowiki>, for a start. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 17:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
*<nowiki>{{Riotcontrol-stub}}</nowiki> should be in its own category [[:Category:Riot-control stubs]] (which could be set up easily), not bundled into [[:Category:Law enforcement stubs]], else what is the purpose in having another stub class? [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 17:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
**{{cl|Riot control stubs}}, if anything:  we keep the qualifier in noun form, rather than adjectivising it.  (After a long period of having an incoherent combination of the two.)  There ''is'' no point in creating a new stub type, if there's not a critical mass of stub to which it would apply.  You're looking for around sixty, not two, if you're not familiar with the guidelines.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
***Agh - I've only just seen this. I've just listed {{tl|Riot-control-stub}} at SFD, since there's no such permcat as {{cl|Riot control}} and no indication that it would be a useful way to split the stubs! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
*I'm certainly not convinced about a riot-control-stub, but looking at {{cl|Law enforcement stubs}} it is splittable - and a far more sensible split would be by country, which is a standard way to split stubs. Well over 100 of these stubs seem to relate to law enforcement in the US, and a {{tl|US-law-enforcement-stub}} template would probably make far more sense than a riot-control-stub. Replacing the incorrect {{tl|Law-enforcement-stub}} with the correct {{tl|prison-stub}} and {{tl|crime-bio-stub}} on the 100-odd prison and biography articles in this category would help a lot, too! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 07:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|Australian rugby league biography stubs}} -- by DoB===
{{sfp create}}
*{{cl|Australian rugby league biography, 1980s birth stubs}} 190
*{{cl|Australian rugby league biography, 1970s birth stubs}} 84
Permcat has next to no subcategorisation, so DoB seems to be the only viable option.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
: we've split so many other sports by DoB so I see no problem, especially as the only other option would be by position which does not seem to be categorised in many cases. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::Do those categories even exist?  If so, they've flown well below my radar.  Not necessarily a bad idea, if the info's in the article in some systematic way (like an infobox or a category).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Appears that the caegorisation by position is poor because they don't eexist and from what I've seen position does not appear in many infobox. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 22:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Ah.  That would certainly explain that.  Seems odd, since rugby (or perhaps more especially Union) seems to be one of the more position-stereotyped of ball sports.  I can cope with DoB if everyone else can.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 23:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|People's Republic of China media stubs}}===
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{{cl|China stubs}} is oversized, this is the best I can come up with.  Perhaps with upmerged templates for TV, radio, newspapers, etc.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:Support upmerged templates. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|United Kingdom company stubs}}, by industry===
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Oversized.  Following the pattern of the US split:
*{{cl|United Kingdom service company stubs}} 223
*{{cl|United Kingdom manufacturing company stubs}} 164
*{{cl|United Kingdom media company stubs}} 73
*{{cl|United Kingdom financial services company stubs}} 63
The "service" one might be excessively broad.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:And there's also {{cl|United Kingdom publishing company stubs}} from [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/June_2007#Miscellaneous_double-stubbing_mashup|June 2007]]. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::Odd.  I must investigate further...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Loudoun County, Virginia geography stubs}}, and rest of said state===
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Parent is oversized, there seems to be 68 of these.  More generally, we'll probably need upmerged templates, and regions -- whatever those are exactly.  (There are {{cl|Northern Virginia}} and {{cl|Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area}} permcats, for starters.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''support''' Category and upmerging templates.  I think if this clears the virginia-geos off the list all well and good otherwise we will need some regionalisation.  Any WP we can contact regarding these if/when needed. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Burkina Faso geography stubs}}, by subdiv===
{{sfp top|create upmerged templates}}
Apparently undergoing rapid growth by a certain someone who evidently doesn't "do" stub proposals, but is at least willing to engage in stub-proposal proposals.  Or proximity proposals, maybe that is.  At any rate, if you read [[User_talk:Alai#Burkina Faso]], you'll know all I currently know.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Actually there are 3 editors working on Burkina geo articles and I've more than done my part in helping wikipedia[[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 15:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:I was just about to propose this. Also, when the editor started creating Burkina Faso geos en masse, he wasn't adding stubs to the short articles, so there are even more than the current 850...--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 12:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:OK, I can confirm that [[Plateau-Central Region]] and [[Boucle du Mouhoun Region]] types are (very comfortably) viable, and which would be enough to do-oversize for now.  Probably others are too, but this is obscured by systematic confusion between regions and provinces in the infoboxes' "first order subdivision" field.  Nor have they bothered creating regional-level cats.  If someone does so, I can easily pick up more accurate counts when the next db dump happens.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 15:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::There are now near a 1000. I'd suggest spitting by the 45 provinces. Some of them will have to be upmerged until they have 60 but some of them already have like over 100 in some of the provinces. There are 3 editors working through them [[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 15:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Very unlikely to be viable for quite some to come, since 900/45 is only about a third away to the threshold on average.  Most of the regions will be plenty marginal enough.  However, I have no objection to provincial templates upmerged to regions (or upmerged to the parent, as could have been done quite some time ago, as I keep pointing out in such instances).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 15:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

E.g [[:Category:Ganzourgou Province]] now has over 200 stubs alone. The best thing indeed would probably to split by 13 first and then if these become too big in the future then they can be split by Province. [[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 15:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:Indeed, I've just done a count by "secondary subivision" by infobox (which isn't going to be completely consistent, for the reasons noted above), and [[Ganzourgou]], [[Banwa Province]], [[Balé Province]] are all definitely viable.  [[Bam Province]] is also at least quite close.  Everything else is shrapnel at present, though that might just be pending creation of another shedload.  Do we have any idea how many to expect in total?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 15:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:And lastly for now, [[Centre-Nord Region]] is going to be viable once its components (including the aforementioned Bam) are added in.  Provincial templates for all 45 provinces are probably the best plan, though it's a tad more work in the short term.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd imagine eventually there will be around 10,000, that just towns and villages not including all the other geography stubs and the ones on departments, rivers etc. I would expect around 10,500 eventually. We are building the temmplates up at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Burkina Faso/Provincial templates]] by province. The first few templates give a typical insight to how many are in each province. They look hideous listed together with 45 templates on one page but we needed to keep track of progress and eventually aim at expanding them when info becomes avilabale. Note that Bam province is actually only half complete.... [[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 16:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Blofeld, Bam is 3/4 complete with more coming! Of course, we really should have the stub tag before Blofeld, EJF, and myself get to the region or province, whichever works best. However I think all region stub tags should be created on the spot and we can further divide into provinces after that. Yes it is true I don't exactly "do" stub proposals since I would much rather create the stub tag without all this stub-tag discussion. I'm an '''''[[Special:Contributions/Editorofthewiki|Editor]][[User:Editorofthewiki|of]][[User talk:Editorofthewiki|the]][[Special:Random|wiki]]'''''<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Editorofthewiki|[''citation needed'']]]</sup> 18:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
**If SBoS is even 1/4 right about the eventual numbers, we would be much better creating (upmerged) stub templates for all the provinces up front, rather than tagging by region, and then double-handling later.  You may think that 'all this discussion' is somehow irksome, but in my experience, when a proposal is clearly guidelines-compliant, the amount of discussion required tends to be pretty minimal (and very often the "wait" likewise).  If a proposal (or unproposed course of action) ''isn't'' in line with the guidelines, then it's just as well to have the discussion up front, rather about to fix it after the fact.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Queensland geography stubs}} by... some sort of subdivision===
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Australian subdivisions seem to follow the UK model, which is to say, "total incomprehensibility to outsiders".  Counting permcat numbers, {{cl|Ipswich, Queensland geography stubs}} would seem to be viable at v63, which may or may nor correspond to an LGA.  I'm currently rummaging through infoboxes to see if those add up better.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
*The "LGA" search confirms an identical count for Ipswich, but throws up nothing else immediately viable.  So beyond that, I'd need to make sense of the wider, probably informal, regions.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:*We already have some sub cats does this follow the same pattern. Also what do we use to tell {{tl|Ipswich-geo-stub}} relating to a future stub type for Ipswich, England and {{tl|Ipswich-geo-stub}} for Ipswich, Queensland apart. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:**Probably relatively far-future, since Ipswich isn't a UA, but good point.  Probably {{tl|IpswichAU-geo-stub}}, say.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 22:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|United Kingdom television journalist stubs}}===
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UK-tv-bios are oversized;  there seems to be something like 116 that would go in this.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''support'''.  Copies what we've done with the US. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|data structure stubs}}===
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The comp-sci stubs are rather large now;  I believe there are around 81 on data structures that could be carved out.  I shall keep plugging away to find other possible subtypes.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 22:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
*I haven't already proposed {{cl|formal methods stubs}}?  I shall do so now...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|1990s rock album stubs}} subtypes===
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*<s>{{cl|1990s hard rock album stubs}}</s>{{cl|1990s hard rock album stubs}} 77
*<s>{{cl|1990s pop rock stubs}} 88</s>
You know the drill.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:support all of these, I think pop-rock has already been based and I think suggested hard rock in anouther discussion. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 08:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
*Would that be {{cl|1990s hard rock album stubs}} and {{cl|1990s pop rock album stubs}}? if so, '''support'''. Nitpickily, [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:*Good point.  This is why we have this page. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::Y'know, I ''was'' a little surprised that one didn't go blue...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Museum stubs}}, by continent===
{{sfp top|create as revised}}
For some countries there will be enough museums for seperate country museums like Greece and Korea etc (as has already been created) but for many museums in Africa etc I;d suggest splitting by continent first e.g [[:Category:Africa museum stubs]] etc. There are currently 774 stubs in that category as is likely to increase considerably due to the activities of the new museum project [[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 16:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' and seems speediable--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 19:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:Ah, so ''that's'' where they're coming from.  Support templates for any-country-one-cares-to-name, which would certainly be speediable, and thereafter any categories that are numerically viable, either per-continent, UN geoscheme subregion, or country.  Normal attributive usage though, please (e.g. {{cl|African museum stubs}}).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Oceanian people stubs}}===
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Of the upmerged Oceania bio stubs, {{tl|PapuaNewGuinea-bio-stub}} has reached 85 articles, and {{tl|Samoa-bio-stub}} 62. Speediable? <span style="font-family:Verdana">– [[User:Liveste|Liveste]] <small>([[User talk:Liveste|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Liveste|edits]])</small></span> 16:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
:Quite speediable, I'd say--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 18:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{Cl|Irish religious biography stubs}} / {{Tl|Ireland-reli-bio-stub}}===
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Irish people is oversized and this seems viable at 73 according to catscan.  Could also act as a parent for {{Cl|Irish saint stubs}}. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 12:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{tl|Rabbi-stub}} {{cl|Rabbi stubs}}===
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This stub should have had a Category a long time ago because I stopped counting when I got to F and 96 stubs. Currently under Category:Jewish biography stubs. Therefore I propose Speedy S1. [[User:Kathleen.wright5|Kathleen.wright5]] 03:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
*According to what links here 452! I think this might just qualify it as speediable. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 07:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Sports equipment stubs}}===
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70 items that could use {{tl|sport-equipment-stub}}; more sub-cats of {{cl|Equipment}} to come. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
:Looks like a good start on sorting out the dumping ground that is {{cl|sports stubs}} [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 10:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{Cl|American academic biography stubs}}===
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We appear to have 60 articles for which {{Tl|US-legal-academic-bio-stub}} / {{Cl|United States legal academic stubs}} would not go a miss. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 16:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{Cl|United States non-fiction writer stubs}}===
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Both the following would just about be viable splits from this oversized category
*{{Cl|United States political writer stubs}} / {{Tl|US-political-writer-stub}} (60)
*<s>{{Cl|United States historian writer stubs}} / {{Tl|US-historian-writer-stub}} (96)</s>
Not to sure about the last name as it would map to {{Cl|American historians}} which we already have a stub cat for.  So do these just need resorting or do we need the new cat? [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
:Resorting.  While I could see splitting between historians who write mainly for a popular audience and those writing for an academic audience, the existing permanent categories don't support it and there would be POV issues about where some of them go.  I just added {{cl|United States non-fiction writer stubs}} as a parent of {{cl|United States historian stubs}} to match what the permcats do. Even if there are no dupes, it won't make ''Cat:United States historian stubs'' oversized to resort those into the historian stubs. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 20:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
::I don't believe it's necessary for us to wait on a direct permcat parent, as in similar cases we have not baulked at semi-arbitrary intersections, if they're populable and seem useful.  But here, I don't know it really is.  If anything, I don't think the historians-writing-for-an-academic-audience should be tagged with a -writer- type at all, but with an -academic-bio- one.  After all, a notable physicist must have written the odd paper or two, but we wouldn't tag them as "writers" on that basis alone.  Since those types continue to grow without limit, we probably need to make subtypes make explicit that someone is an academic of a particular discipline, as against having subtypes-that-aren't-really-subtypes, by discipline but without the academic qualifier.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Sounds like we are all saying that the historians should have {{Tl|US-historian-stub}} and not a writer one, correct. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 22:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|Kosovo geography stubs}}===
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Well, we knew this rather iffy one would arrive sooner or later. Given that we do have a {{cl|Kosovo stubs}}, and also given that the country has been recognised by a pretty large cross-section of the world's nations, the geo-stubs from Kosovo (which have just reached 60 in number) can probably be afforded their own speediable category. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 12:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
*About-bleedin'-time support.  As Kosovo used to be an official subdiv anyway, the recognition issue ought not to have prevented us creating this category (it just should have given us reason to be careful about supercats).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
**Created (and pre-emptively protected, given the trouble we had with the similar generic category) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 08:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
***Probably wise.  We're not going "double parent" on this one, then?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 14:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{Cl|Italian people stubs}}===
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Heading to oversized, according to catscan {{Cl|Italian religious biography stubs}} / {{Tl|Italy-reli-bio-stub}} would have 70 articles and a saint subcat. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 09:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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===10 National team rugbyleague-bio-stubs===
{{sfp create}}
Planning to create stub types for those major rugby league nations who do not current have one. Those being; 
{{Tl|PapuaNewGuinea-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Samoa-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Tonga-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Fiji-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Lebanon-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|SouthAfrica-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Cooks-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Ireland-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Scotland-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|Wales-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
{{Tl|England-rugbyleague-bio-stub}}
Will create in short order.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Londo06|<span style="color:#fef;background:red;">'''Londo'''</span>]][[User talk:Londo06|<span style="color:white;background:black;">'''06'''</span>]]</span></small> 12:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
*Can we assume these will be upmerged? The parent cat has only 240 articles therein. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 15:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
:* I know my knowledge of Rugby league is limited but are countries like Cook Islands and Lebanon really bigger than england (which we don't have a template for).  Support upmerged templates by the way. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
:It is the national sport of Papua New Guinea and real big in Lebanon. The Cook Islands have a number of players, but I couldn't speak for the game out there. I have created the England stub also.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Londo06|<span style="color:#fef;background:red;">'''Londo'''</span>]][[User talk:Londo06|<span style="color:white;background:black;">'''06'''</span>]]</span></small> 11:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
::*{{tl|England-rugbyleague-bio-stub}} would be viable also (and is missing). Is an Oceanian category viable? [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 21:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
*Comment - I have amended three of the proposals slightly to the standard "PapuaNewGuinea-", "Cooks-" and "SouthAfrica-" forms (check the naming guidelines - no gaps!). I'd support upmerged templates too, BTW, although they seem a little premature (to answer Waacstat's question, an appproximate world ranking would be Australia first, the England and New Zealand, then a significant gap to France, Scotland, Ireland, and Papua New Guinea, from there a bigger gap to the other countries listed. They all play the sport to some international level, but England would far outstrip most of them). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 23:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Renamed to CookIslands. We are talking of around 50+ articles for all the stubs to be created.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Londo06|<span style="color:#fef;background:red;">'''Londo'''</span>]][[User talk:Londo06|<span style="color:white;background:black;">'''06'''</span>]]</span></small> 19:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
:Renamed back to Cooks- as per what is used in stub sorting! Please check other stub types relating to the Cook Islands, all of which use Cooks-. No objection to a redirect fromCookIslands-, though. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 22:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
::Created the remaining stubs and CookIslands as a redirect of Cooks.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Londo06|<span style="color:#fef;background:red;">'''Londo'''</span>]][[User talk:Londo06|<span style="color:white;background:black;">'''06'''</span>]]</span></small> 11:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|British diplomat stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
{{Tl|UK-diplomat-stub}} is at 90 propose speedy creation of above category. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 20:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|Canadian activist stubs}} / {{Tl|Canada-activist-stub}}===
{{sfp create}}
The Canadians are nearly over 800 this has about 70 according to catscan. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 13:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
===7 sports bios===
{{sfp create}}
All of the following are viable given rough figures.
*{{Cl|Malaysian sportspeople stubs}} / {{Tl|Malaysia-footy-bio-stub}} (50) {{Tl|Malaysia-sport-bio-stub}} (50)
*{{Cl|Singaporean sportspeople stubs}} / {{Tl|Singapore-footy-bio-stub}} (40) {{Tl|Singapore-sport-bio-stub}} (35)
*{{Cl|Thai sportspeople stubs}} / {{Tl|Thailand-boxing-bio-stub}} (30) {{Tl|Thailand-sport-bio-stub}} (50)
*{{Cl|Taiwanese sportspeople stubs}} / {{Tl|Taiwan-footy-bio-stub}} (35) {{Tl|Taiwan-sport-bio-stub}} (65)
*{{Cl|United Arab Emirati sportspeople stubs}} / {{Tl|UAE-footy-bio-stub}} (30) {{Tl|UAE-cricket-bio-stub}} (30) {{Tl|UAE-sport-bio-stub}} (5)
*{{Cl|Zambian sportspeople stubs}} /  {{Tl|Zambia-footy-bio-stub}} (50) {{Tl|Zambia-sport-bio-stub}} (15)
*{{Cl|Fijian sportspeople stubs}} /  {{Tl|Fiji-rugbyunion-bio-stub}} (35) {{Tl|Fiji-sport-bio-stub}} (30)
[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 13:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support all'''. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 21:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support all, but...''' the UAE ones should be {{Tl|UnitedArabEmirates-footy-bio-stub}}, {{Tl|UnitedArabEmirates-cricket-bio-stub}}, and {{Tl|UnitedArabEmirates-sport-bio-stub}} per standard naming (the other names are fine as redirects) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 23:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
:*I've always used UAE, will have to remember that in future. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 07:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
::*as with New Zealand and a couple of other countries, we have UAE- types as redirects, but the main ones are at UnitedEtcEtc-. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 11:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
:::*Oh, and for some inexplicable reason, we both spelt cricket with a capital C - I've fixed that :) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 11:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
::::*We should certainly have UAE- redirects (at least), since it's a standard abbreviation, which passes the redirect/disambig test in the article space.  (NZ almost does so, but not quite, and is a much less familiar/standard one, for me at least.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|Japanese business biography stubs}} / {{Tl|Japan-business-bio-stub}}===
{{sfp create}}
Again Japan-bios are oversized Catscan gives over 100 articles (with one or two oddities). [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 12:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|Music biography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Another one hovering below the 800 mark.  {{Cl|United Kingdom music biography stubs}} / {{Tl|UK-music-bio-stub}} and {{Tl|UK-conductor-stub}} is viable and could act as a parent for existing musician, singer and record producer stub cats. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 16:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|United States artist stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Just sorted to under 800 a {{Cl|United States illustrator stubs}} / {{Tl|US-illustrator-stub}} would be viable.  Catscan gives 55 that could take {{Tl|US-sculptor-stub}} and I am sure we could find the extra for a category but template first {{cl|United States sculptor stubs}} if it reaches 60. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 16:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|Canadian actor stubs}}===
{[sfp create}}
Nearly oversized, undersorted to screen actor cat but I think it may be easier to sort if we finish off the template and create
*{{Tl|Canada-film-actor-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canada-stage-actor-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canada-voice-actor-stub}}
[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 16:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|Hardware stubs}}===
{{sfp top|re-proposed as sport-equipment-stub}}
I was working on [[harness]] and noticed it had an inappropriate stub category.  I looked at the list of stub types and found nothing that would group hardware, general misc equipment or gear together under one category of stub.  This category could be further subdivided when appropriate, but other technology based stub types seem inappropriate for this type of article. I'm not hardover on the title but I think this one is a good top level name. --[[User:The Founders Intent|<span style="color:green;">'''''T<small>HE</small> F<small>OUNDERS</small> I<small>NTENT </small>'''''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:The Founders Intent|''TALK'']]</sup> 15:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:That the article is now a disambig, and the category has been deleted twice does not fill me with high hope, I must admit.  Can you scope this in such a way that it a) corresponds to a permcat, b) would be populable, given the "numerosity" objective, and c) isn't too vague or broad for any practical utility?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
::Normally, we'd use the fairly vague {{tl|Tool-stub}} for this sort of thing, BTW. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Doesn't look like those articles would actually be in the {{cl|tools}} permcat hierarchy, but rather {{cl|equipment}}.  An {{tl|equipment-stub}} would be even more tremendously vague, however.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 08:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Like I said, I'm not wrapped around the axle about the name, as long as it's reasonable of course.  Equipment, hardware, or something of that nature which is missing from the the Stubs list.  I just can't find anything that I can use that isn't a big stretch.  I don't care if it's been deleted, maybe those folks didn't look hard enough to find articles, I don't know. Why is there a technology list and then an Other technology list? --[[User:The Founders Intent|<span style="color:green;">'''''T<small>HE</small> F<small>OUNDERS</small> I<small>NTENT </small>'''''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:The Founders Intent|''TALK'']]</sup> 13:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
::::The ''permanent'' category was deleted.  There's no "numerosity" requirement for permcats, so if was deleted for lack of use, it must have been ''entirely'' unused.  But more to the point, I'm still not seeing either the need, or the utility.  Other technology?  I don't get the context.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, I retract my request.  Too many naysayers. --[[User:The Founders Intent|<span style="color:green;">'''''T<small>HE</small> F<small>OUNDERS</small> I<small>NTENT </small>'''''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:The Founders Intent|''TALK'']]</sup> 18:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
:Eh, I didn't say "nay", I said, "please explain further how we could sensibly do this".  You didn't.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 14:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
*The only stub category under {{cl|Equipment}} seems to be {{cl|Medical equipment stubs}}, or if you go far enough you get to military items such as firearms & armor. What about something like "farm equipment" or "sports equipment" stubs? Viable? I'll have to look later. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 14:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
**Those woul certainly make perfect scoping sense to this editor.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
*OK, I have done some hand-counting and find at least 70 items that could use {{tl|sport-equipment-stub}}, and an additional 580+ <ack> that could use {{tl|equipment-stub}}. I will do some sorting in this area and see if I can find any more viable sub-cats. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|government occupation stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
I estimate that about 77 gov-stubs are for "gov-jobs" (rather than bios).  Parent is (still) oversized.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:...a natural subtype of the largish {{tl|Job-stub}}, too. '''Support'''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|Chemist stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
On its way to oversized propose the usual suspects
*{{Cl|American chemist stubs}} / {{Tl|US-chemist-stub}} and {{Tl|US-biochemist-stub}}
*{{Cl|British chemist stubs}} / {{Tl|UK-chemist-stub}} and {{Tl|UK-biochemist-stub}}
[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 16:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
*Why not {{cl|United Kingdom chemist stubs}} and {{cl|United States chemist stubs}}, for the usual reasons of "horizontal consistency", and "basic sanity"?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
**I normally use US/UK don't know why I didnt.  Happy either way, I'm not that bothered by the distinction and get bored of arguments of both sides so which ever the closer decides. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 18:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
===Cook Islands stubs===
{{sfp create}}
We don't have a general Cook Islands stub type, I haven't done the numbers, but propose {{tl|Cooks-stub}}/{{cl|Cook Islands stubs}} pretty much regardless of size, although I think there's a fair few anyhow, including those articles tagged with {{tl|Cooks-geo-stub}}. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 22:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:Support.  May as well throw in an upmerged {{Tl|Cooks-bio-stub}} and possibly a {{Tl|Cooks-politician-sutb}} while we are at it. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 23:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' as well. I tried to fix {{cl|Cook Islands sportspeople stubs}} and gave up when I realized that no country-level stub even existed!--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 01:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' from me as well. It would probably be useful to have a generic stub template for every country by now, same as there is for geo-stubs (as listed at [[User:Grutness/Geo-stub list]]). Most (though not all) would probably reach threshold for separate categories, too (almost all the geo ones have now). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
:While I understand the logic behind {{tl|Cooks-geo-stub}}, I have to say that {{tl|Cooks-stub}} reads...  oddly.  I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have the canonical template at {{tl|CookIslands-stub}}, with a redirect.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
::I must say that overall I tend to agree. Though we do try to make these thing uniform at Xs-stub for the X Islands, we do make one or two exceptions (The Channel Islands, for instance). perhaps The Cook Islands should be another of these. ISTR a similar point was implied at least with the recent rugby league stubs. It will mean reversing some redirects, but that shouldn't be too problematic. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 06:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

{{tl|CookIslands-stub}}//{{Tl|CookIslands-bio-stub}}//{{tl|CookIslands-politician-stub}} then. I'll take the geo- template to SfD. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 22:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|Canadian football biography stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as revised}}
Is up over 700 making it one of the argest sport cats, I propose to split by playing position as we have done with its southern neighbour American football.  Catscan shows the following would be viable
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-widereceiver-stub}} / {{Cl|Canadian football wide receiver stubs}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-runningback-stub}} / {{Cl|Canadian football running back stubs}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-offensive-lineman-stub}} / {{Cl|Canadian football offensive lineman stubs}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-linebacker-stub}} / {{Cl|Canadian football linebacker stubs}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-defensive-lineman-stub}} / {{Cl|Canadian football defensive lineman stubs}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-defensiveback-stub}} / {{Cl|Canadian football defensive back stubs}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-fullback-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-placekicker-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-punter-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-quarterback-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-returnspecialist-stub}}
*{{Tl|Canadianfootball-slotback-stub}}
and categories for any of the later that prove to be over 60. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:The problem I have with Canadian football stubs in general is that the vast majority of players are in fact from the United States and simply play in the Canadian Football League. {{cl|American football biography stubs}} should be sorted by nationality, not league, as should these.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 15:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::Not true. Firstly, half of all players in the CFL are Canadian and all, or nearly all, in [[CIS football]] and [[Canadian Junior Football League]] are Canadian. Secondly, [[Canadian football]] is not [[American football]] so the point is moot anyway; would we not have American fullback stubs because there are Association football fullback stubs? [[User:DoubleBlue|<span style="color:darkblue;">'''Double'''</span><span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] ([[User talk:DoubleBlue|Talk)]] 05:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:::The point is nonetheless true that we should be as clear as possible about what the intended scope is.  Are we having a gridiron type, split by nationality?  Or are we having two distinct by-sport types?  Seemingly, on the basis of the template names, it's the latter, but we should be wary over possible confusion, and possible excess double-stubbing.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:I also wonder if some of these are a little over-specialised.  Are slotbacks (template should be singular, btw) really career specialists, or do they cross over significantly with tight ends, wide receivers, or other flavours of back?  But if these guys are correctly sorted here in the first place, I agree in principle with the split.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::I have no idea about these, I saw that they are large and thought how do we split these? and this seemed the best way. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 20:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Perhaps we could also create a -back- template, or something like that, and see if saves on excess double-stubbing.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 21:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm surprised you support the templates this way round, Alai, given that the major component is at the start rather than the middle :) I do too, though, and trust you, waacstats and whoever else to find the correct positional terminology for a sport I know less about than korfball or polo - i.e., nothing at all ('''Support''') [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 23:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::I think some of these verge on over specification.  We don't even have either {{tl|fullback-stub}} or {{tl|slotback-stub}}  though I grant that with the 12th man and other rules differences, Canadian football uses the slotback position more.  Still it may be overkill to separate them from the running backs and the wide receivers at the stub level. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 00:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::I thought 'slotback' was strictly particular to the Canuck variety -- no?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::In American gridiron, it refers to a position a running back or would start from in some offensive formations, but since American has only 11 players instead of the Canadian 12, its not used as often in American gridiron as it is in Canadian, so not all American football teams have a player specifically designated as such. However see [http://bleacherreport.com/articles/28830-wide-receiver-and-slot-back this], [http://suntimes.sportsdirectinc.com/football/ncaaf-players.aspx?page=/data/ncaaf/players/player21383.html this], and especially [http://www.footballbabble.com/football/positions/ this] for evidence that the slot back is not uniquely Canadian. It's just that the rule differences make it more common in Canadian football. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 00:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Learn a new thing every day.  Sounds as if it's not going to be a "career speciality" of any sort in the Amfoot- variety, don't know if it is in Canfoot-.  If we end up double-stubbing most of the people who'd use it with some other position, doesn't sound like it's worth it, even as an upmerged template.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::If we create the templates which will have categories and then see what is left in the main category before creating any other templates.  Create the other templates only if there are 30 or so that would not be double stubbed with another canfoot template.  How does that sound.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' in principle. There may be some positions that could be combined as per Alai and Caerwine (and there are spelling corrections, obviously). [[User:DoubleBlue|<span style="color:darkblue;">'''Double'''</span><span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] ([[User talk:DoubleBlue|Talk)]] 05:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{Cl|New York politician stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Another over 700 I propose splitting this in the same way as we have with Pennsylvania.
*{{Cl|New York United States Representative stubs}} / {{Tl|NewYork-Representative-stub}}
Cat scan shows this would have 300 articles. Other states that I checked that would also be viable are California 89, North Carolina 122, Virginia 177, Illinois 62, Marland 143, Ohio 87, Georgia 148, massachusetts 83. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|television technology stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as tv-tech-stub}}
tv-stubs are oversized, I think this would squeak to 63 or so.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:Good idea.  Is the template -tech- or -technology-?. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
::I was assuming the former, in line with {{tl|tech-stub}}.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I think i've seen both and was wandering which way round it was. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 18:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|United Kingdom television actor stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Heading for oversized, we already have two subcats one for the English and one for those born in the 1940s Therefore we could goeither with templates for scotland , wales and NorthernIreland or for continuing the Decade of birth split.  I propose we continue along the lines of decade of birth split. templates for each decade, category where it reaches 60. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 14:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Support by-decade.  "England" subcats are rather useless, given that it's the numerically dominant component, so becomes oversized almost as quick as the UK- version.  Creating the other "home nations" only encourages 'em.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 14:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{Cl|Canadian actor stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Recently proposed tempaltes for film, stage and voice have all reached 60+ propose 
*{{Cl|Canadian voice actor stubs}}
*{{Cl|Canadian film actor stubs}}
*{{Cl|Canadian stage actor stubs}}
be speedy created [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 12:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Speedy indeed.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 13:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|United States railway company stubs}}===
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{{cl|United States rail stubs}} is oversized, this would certainly be viable.  I thought we'd laready had this proposed, in fact... (under a slightly different name, or something?).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''',  and it might also help with the oversized {{Cl|United States company stubs}}. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 13:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Back in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/October_2006#US_rail_subtypes|October 2006]] we approved {{cl|Defunct United States railroad company stubs}}, {{cl|United States passenger railroad stubs}}, {{cl|United States Class I railroad stubs}}, and {{cl|United States railroad museum and tourist line stubs}}, of which (as you see) two have been created. I '''support''' creation of {{cl|United States railway company stubs}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 15:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
**Thanks for clearing that up.  Permcat uses "railway", so that would seem preferable.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Russian university and college stubs}}===
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{{cl|Russia stubs}} is oversized, this is viable at 61.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
: While trying to sort Russia-stub, found that this was already created in March as {{cl|Russia university stubs}}.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 18:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks, close enough, I guess.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Ah-hah -- {{tl|Russia-university-stub}} was double-catted, and otherwise broken.  Fixed now.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|Kuyavian-Pomeranian geography stubs}}, by county===
{{sfp create}}
Oversized -- warning, bot at work.
*{{cl|Brodnica County geography stubs}}
*{{cl|Bydgoszcz County geography stubs}}
*{{cl|Aleksandrów County geography stubs}}
*{{cl|Golub-Dobrzyń County geography stubs}}
*{{cl|Chełmno County geography stubs}}
And others to follow -- probably near-alphabetically -- as they become viable.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' these and any along the same line that become viable. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 13:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Update:  parent was heading towards 1400, so I decided to start catching up.  Now also viable:  Grudziądz, Inowrocław and Lipno counties.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 03:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|fantasy novel stubs}} by decade===
{{sfp create}}
Oversized.  Could readily be split into the following:
*{{cl|1980s fantasy novel stubs}} 87
*{{cl|1990s fantasy novel stubs}} 156
*{{cl|2000s fantasy novel stubs}} 251
Open to other ideas.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
*Doesn't seem to be any other reasonable splits from the perm cat so '''Support'''. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 13:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Turkish sports venue stubs}}===
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I can only 55 of these at present, but since they're the largest by-country component of {{cl|European sports venue stubs}}, they're enough to de-oversize it (... for now...), and since many of them won't even be ''in'' Europe, I suggest we wink at the shortfall, and trust that it'll grow soon enough anyway.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 12:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|1990s rock single stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
'90s singles are oversized:  as this is how we split the '00s, and indeed just about every album type, I'd think this might well be speediable.  "Pop" would almost certainly be viable too, if someone cared to hand-sort (or even inspect the infoboxes).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

===Remaining country stubs===
{{sfp create}}
Propose the last few country stubs are created with categories and bio stubs upmerged, <s>all regardless of size</s>:
{| class="wikitable"
!Country !! Stub !! Bio stub !! Catgeory (no. articles)
|-
|{{SLB}} || {{tl|Solomons-stub}} || ''extant'' || {{cl|Solomon Islands stubs}} (c.130 + geo subcat)
|-
|{{FSM}} || {{tl|Micronesia-stub}} || ''extant''  || {{cl|Federated States of Micronesia stubs}} (c.145)
|-
|{{MHL}} || {{tl|Marshalls-stub}} || ''extant'' || {{cl|Marshall Islands stubs}} (c.60 + geo subcat)
|-
|{{PLW}} || {{tl|Palau-stub}} || ''extant'' || {{cl|Palau stubs}} (c.130)
|-
|{{TUV}} || {{tl|Tuvalu-stub}} || ''extant'' || {{cl|Tuvalu stubs}} (c.60 + geo subcat)
|-
|{{VAT}} || {{tl|VaticanCity-stub}} || {{tl|VaticanCity-bio-stub}} || <s>{{cl|Vatican City stubs}}</s>
|}
[[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 23:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

*Support templates (with the very minor amendment I made to the Palau template) - but not categories. I'm not convinced this is "the last few" though - I'm sure there are others with [[User: Grutness/Geo-stub list|geo-stubs]] that don't have generic stubs. I don't recall a {{tl|NetherlandsAntilles-stub}}, {{tl|Azores-stub}}, {{tl|USVirginIslands-stub}}, {{tl|AmericanSamoa-stub}} or {{tl|NorthernMarianas-stub}}, to start with. And though you may quibble about the definition of "country", several of these are at least as nuch countries as some of those that exist - or indeed, a couple that you've proposed! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 01:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC) (amended 08:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC))
*Why "regardless of size"?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 05:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
**Actually, that's a point - I hadn't noticed that. Templates is what I was thinking of 9and what i support). Categories can wait in most cases. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 08:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
***Categories are supported by number of articles now. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 09:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
****Grand.  The Vatican was the one that looked iffy to me...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
*Don't we have agreement for all foo-stub, foo-bio-stub, foo-geo-stub and foo-politician-stub for all countries (for a given value of country).  Either way '''Support'''
**I think we in essence do, whether it's even been put that explicitly or so.  If we don't, suggest we do so now.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 23:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
***<s>I must say that overall I tend to agree. Though we do try to make these thing uniform at Xs-stub for the X Islands, we do make one or two exceptions (The Channel Islands, for instance). perhaps The Cook Islands should be another of these. ISTR a similar point was implied at least with the recent rugby league stubs. It will mean reversing some redirects, but that shouldn't be too problematic. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 06:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)</s>
****Aimed for the section below and missed?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
*****Indeed so, and now moved. Someone must've added a new section while I wasn't looking. Support the cats for those with 60+ stubs now, BTW. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 13:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{Cl|Television biography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Close to oversized I propose splitting out a {{Cl|Asian television biography stubs}} and {{Cl|European television biography stubs}} fed with as many country specific tempaltes as people want and then {{Tl|continent-tv-bio-stub}}. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 16:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
*Weak oppose of continental templates (for the usual reasons);  support everything else -- nay, speedy.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
**If someone wants to create all the templates I have no problem with that, if I start I'll get bored after 4 or 5. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 06:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
***That's why it's only a ''weak'' oppose. :)  If you need complete coverage to start sorting, I do sympathise for the need as a matter of practicality.  Alternatively, you could start with the most numerous, and then create some more on-the-fly...  In fact. now that I think of it, let me crunch some numbers on the last db dump, which finished building here overnight:  Ireland 15, T&T 13, Philippines 11, New Zealand 10, Mexico 9, Pakistan 8, HK 7, Argentina 5, Germany 4.  (Results probably somewhat wonky due to lack of a consistent structure under {{cl|television people}}, but ought to be more or less safe underestimates.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

===Split oh historian-stub===
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Category is around 800, definitely could use some attention, though I don't have any specific numbers or suggestions.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 13:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
*Sorted <s>closer to</s> ''well below'' 700, catscan says there are 62 articles in {{Cl|Historian stubs}} and a subcat of {{cl|German people stubs}} so I propose {{Tl|Germany-historian-stub}} and {{Cl|German historian stubs}} [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 14:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
**Bit late on this, but was just about to action. CatScan gives only 48 articles in the parent {{Cl|Historian stubs}} and a subcat of {{cl|German people stubs}} - there are about 15 more in {{Cl|Art historian stubs}}. I'll go ahead with the template for those currently marked {{tl|historian-stub}} but I'll leave off the art historian ones now and also the category as without them it doesn't meet threshold. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 21:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|Antarctica geography stubs}} do-over?===
{{sfp top|courageously whacked into submission by Caerwine}}
The East/West split that was apparently agreed earlier doesn't seem to be happening.  I certainly won't be making it happen, since it doesn't align to any permcats, at least with detectable populations.  Should we be looking at this again?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:Support from me for that (though you already knew that - see the psych stubs split below for details). Problem is, of course, that we're veering into "Unrecognised states" territory with these - though the boundaries of Ross Dependency are well-enough agreed for a separate permcat, and the Antarctic Peninsula also has one, most regional claims are overlapping and trying to split this any other way looks fairly unappealing (arbitrarily carving off sectors according to longitude, perhaps?). Perhaps Antarctica is the one area where dividing things by type of feature does make some sense, though I'd like to think that another way is possible. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::Since I was a proponent of the East/West split in the first place, I guess I should attempt a restubbing to see if its salvageable.  Early efforts look promising, just tedious, and likely to affect any effort to sort these. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 04:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::(Header fix:  oops.  Meant the geos, of course.)  The only sub-region that seems to have a viable permcatwise population is the {{cl|Ross Dependency}}, but that gets into the realm of political claims, and isn't even contained within either of the above.  Landformwise looks pretty straightforward, and might even make sense in some cases -- I bet there's a lot of double-stubbing of the glaciers, for example.  However, if the efforts of our brave volunteer pay off, I'm happy just so long as it makes it off (or at least down) the list.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 09:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Problem with Ross Dependency is that it is split between East and West Antarctica. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 16:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::That's just one of the problems, as I mentioned.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 19:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::I haven't been whacking at this as fast I ought to, but the East Antarctic stub is now large enough for a category of its own. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 04:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

===Canadian ice hockey players===
{{sfp create}}
A couple of the by position categories (winger and defenceman) are over 700 and there is undersorting to these from the player category. I propose we split these by decade of birth.  templates upmerged except where they reach 60.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|United Kingdom pre-Reformation bishop stubs}}===
{{sfp other}}
UK-bishops are oversized.  I think a large chunk are pre-reformation, though it's hard to be sure, since the contents of the permcat are, basically, completely nonsense.  Should be possible to busk it from the dates.  (The nonsensical permcat is also scoped as England and Wales, but I don't see any point in not going with the broader scope.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support'''.  I seem to recall having a similar problem when I tried to sort them before.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::Just one question, template name? {{tl|UK-prefeformation-bishop-stub}} or similar. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::I can't think of anything better, to be honest.  Other than spelling it correctly, that is...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::My excuse is I did a Maths degree and never needed to spell.  Anyway {{tl|UK-prereformation-bishop-stub}} I get most things right second time around. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::'''Oppose'''  Shouldn't any such pre-reformation stubs already be using {{tl|UK-RC-bishop-stub}}/{{cl|United Kingdom Roman Catholic bishop stubs}}?  At only 97 stubs, that existing stub type is hardly going to be overwhelmed by sorting through the parent.  Plus the existing {{tl|ChurchofEngland-bishop-stub}} should also serve to diffuse most of the rest. The British bishops need sorting into the existing subtypes at the moment, not creating a new subtype. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 01:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::Uh, which are which?  Tagging a pre-ref Eng bish as ''either'' of the above is going to be see as at best POV, and at worst causus belli for a full-scale revert-and-flame war.  (Admittedly the Scottish case is rather different, on which basis it might be argued that restricting it to England might be the better plan.)  IMO much better to treat it as a de facto distinct denomination from either, serving double duty wrt to historical period.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 02:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Looking at the existing stubs marked with {{tl|UK-RC-bishop-stub}} or {{tl|ChurchofEngland-bishop-stub}} doesn't seem to indicate a problem with revert wars if we use the former to indicate those who acknowledged the supremacy of the Pope and the latter to indicate those that acknowledged the supremacy of the King.  Nor does structure of the existing permcats indicate that it would be a problem either.  The desire for the difference between pre- and post-Reformation appears to be a desire to organize the categories for the individual bishoprics existing at the time of the Reformation so to emphasize the continuity of each despite the change in the acknowledge supreme earthly authority, not any disputes over whether the pre-Reformation bishops were Catholic. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 06:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::::That's just the point:  both sides claim(ed) ownership not just of the church itself, in England, but of the tag "catholic".  Hence among other things, the insistence on (and dislike of the insistence on) "Roman" as a qualifier and modifier, in some parts.  Just as we have {{cl|Early Church bishop stubs}}, rather than tagging these types with RC- or Orthodox- on some mysterious basis.  If these get sorted on the basis you suggest I'm not going to object, but it certainly won't be anything I'm tackling myself.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
*After a cursory read of the articles on the English Reformation and Anglicanism, may I suggest something like {{tl|PreReformation-Anglican-bishop-stub}}? I do think that the term "United Kingdom" should be left out of it, as the UK didn't exist at the time. Just a thought. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 04:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|Togo geography stubs}}, by region===
{{sfp top|create as formatted on the To Do list}}
650 stubs in this category. Most are from the Kara Region but gradually the other towns and villages in other regions will be added to. I'd upmerge them for now. [[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 16:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Greetings, Sir Blofeld! These were approved in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/May_2008#Split_of_Togo-geo-stub|May]]; templates are listed for creation on the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/To_do/To_create#Geography|To Create]] page. HTH, [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 16:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Ahhh I was slow. Thanks. Hope you are well [[User:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦'''''</span></span>]]     <sup>[[User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE| <span style="font-size:x-small; color:Black;">'''$1,000,000?'''</span> ]]</sup> 16:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*I've just ran the numbers on this, and things don't seem to have changed significantly:  only one region is currently viable, or which three of the five sub-divs also are.  For the sake of symmetry, however, it wouldn't be too soon to create templates (upmerged as required) for all the prefectures.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
===More butterflies===
{{sfp top|create upmerged tpl}}
[[User:Wloveral]]'s been working through the butterfly stubs, and tells me that all families of butterfly bar Riodinidae have their own stub templates. I'd like to propose a {{tl|Riodinidae-stub}} template, with a separate category if and when we can find 60 stubs for it. The template's probably speediable, given that all the other families have similar templates. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
*I hate to tempt fate, and get the usual barrage of "oppose all stub-sorting!" and "move for change of venue!" non sequiturs such a move seems to cause (when it doesn't simply get tumbleweeds and stony silence), but just in case this turns out to be an "old, bad taxon", we should probably heads-up the lepidopterans via their WPJ.  Otherwise, support, and all-due-speedy.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
*I've dropped them a line. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 02:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
*No reason not to have a category for this family, about 1000 species when all species are covered (but presently seems like there are only 15 species pages - so may need to wait for more stubs) and should be in line with nymphalidae-stub, papilionidae-stub etc. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 11:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
===Split of {{cl|Asian politician stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as originally proposed}}
Cat is oversized, suggest splitting into regional categories {{cl|Middle Eastern politician stubs}}, {{cl|South Asian politician stubs}}, {{cl|East Asian politician stubs}}, {{cl|Central Asian politician stubs}}. Sorting will be very easy as all countries have been sorted into national templates.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 02:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Comment - we've used Southeast Asia as a regional split before now, perhaps it would be useful here too. I suspect this could be the next equivalent of the geo-stubs "list and regularly count" method - there are a lot of countries quite close to threshold, with several of those asian ones around the 50-stub mark. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*IMO, we should be using the UN geoscheme for all sub-continental splits.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Category currently has just over 700 articles so no rush to split yet, some of those ''around 50'' countries could make it to 60 before the category reches 60. That said I'm not necessarily opposed to a regional split.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 13:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:Just for the record, Bangladesh passed 60 and I de-upmerged the category.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 07:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==={{cl|Mexico geography stubs}}, by region?===
{{sfp top|create regional categories for upmerged state templates}}
I can't find any officially-defined regions for Mexico, but unfortunately it's oversized, and the states are too small.  For the sake of argument, what about using the five broad regions defined [http://www.sprachcaffe.com/english/study_abroad/countries/mexico/regions_of_mexico.htm here]?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:I'd prefer to think about state-specific templates first and seeing whether any reach cat threshold. That might at least lower the overall population a bit. The idea of splitting by broad regions is OK, but as a later resort if the states don't work out by themselves. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 01:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
::They don't, as I've said.  Unless there's vast undercatting and someone can fix that by doing the split but hand, by the numbers (800/30) on that score don't exactly look encouraging.  Naturally there would be per-state upmerged template (and no regional templates, topically enough).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*So would this be "create regional categories for upmerged state templates"? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 03:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|asteroid stubs}} and {{cl|Main Belt asteroid stubs}} -- counsel of despair?===
{{sfp top|create dump categories per Grutness}}
There was some discussion of these stubs at the astro-objects WPJ, the trend of which seems to be that no-one really wants these articles, aside from the couple of people that have been creating them.  No sign of a mass trend of deletion or merger yet, however.  In the meantime, the mass-created articles are totally swamping the relatively few articles that have meaningful data, that have actually received some attention from editors.  From a stub-sorting POV these are in effect, unsortable on any data-driven criteria, due to an absence of said data.  Accordingly, I suggest we set up one or more "dumping ground" categories for those lacking some agreed threshold.  For example, with no infobox, or no text beyond the form-letter minimum used by the auto-creations, or lacking meaningful infobox/category data, like family and spectral class.  I realize this is perilously close to the revenge of the return of "sub-stubs", but it's the only way I can see forward.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 21:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
:For want of a better idea, I suspect that most of the notavble asteroids have low numbers. Could we create subcategories by number ({{cl|Asteroid stubs (10001-15000)}}, {{cl|Asteroid stubs (15001-20000)}} etc)? using 10k-asteroid-stub, 15k-asteroid-stub etc as templates? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::I'd be up for that (but it might just be the despair talking).  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 03:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
:::We need '''some''' place to put them while we figure out what to do with them.  Once we get a consensus, it'll be much easier to find them if we have them in one place.--[[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] [[User talk:Aervanath|lives]] [[Special:Contributions/Aervanath|in]] ''[[WP:O|<b style="color:green;">the Orphanage</b>]]'' 02:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
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===Split of {{cl|Protected area stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
While far from oversized (360 at the moment), this category is missing a few templates and categories which would be quite useful. Propose {{tl|Europe-protected-area-stub}}, {{tl|Asia-protected-area-stub}} (has category but not template), {{tl|Canada-protected-area-stub}} (already has two potential sub-cats) and {{tl|SouthAm-protected-area-stub}} and categories when past 60.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 15:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
*Continental categories but not templates = a good thing.  Support upmerged per-country templates, oppose continental templates.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support'''  I disagree with Alai, having 50 odd templates linking to one category = almost the entire first column = not good. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 18:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
***And systematic double-handling, and confusion caused by subsequent deletion, would be what?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
****Probably just as much mess, but I think unless someone is willing to create all the templates (and yes I did create the last 20 or so asia-politicians to try and clear it) then it is better to have a number of country templates and a continent template than have articles that should be in the category but are not because there is no template for ,say,, oman-protected-area-stub. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 12:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*****I do agree that creating all the templates is a bit of a chore.  (I'm rarely in the right OS to use AWB, so that isn't much of a help.)  The only comfort on that score is that one doesn't need to do it all at once, but either entirely as-needed, or in chunks.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 13:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|People's Republic of China stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as PRChina-stub}}
China's still something of a mess, due to being an ad hoc mixture of Chinese language and history, and the 2 1/2 modern states.  As there are new four PRC-specific stub types, an actual national parent seems only sensible.  (I'm not promising to rush to re-sort the {{cl|China stubs}} myself, mind you, though it might be worthwhile putting it on the list.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 15:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' this is a sensible idea, however we are talking about China which very often leads the other way. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 12:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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===Split of {{cl|Basketball stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create as NBA-stub with clear scope note}}
While not oversized by any stretch (currently around 360 articles), I propose a {{tl|NBA-stub}} (or perhaps {{tl|NationalBasketballAssociation-stub}}?) as well as a {{tl|National-basketball-federation-stub}} upmerged template for the time being. The NBA stub is a definite for a category based on first glance.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 06:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
*Perhaps a {{tl|US-basketball-stub}} would be better?  Trouble with the NBA is that it'll take almost all the US stubs, but will leave any annoying handful around in the parent...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
**I'd support Alai's suggestion. I'm amazed we don't have that. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 13:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
***The problem with that is that the NBA is a multinational league, with one team currently in Canada and few others throughout history. A way to get rid of the non-NBA stubs might be a {{tl|basketball-league-stub}}, perhaps as a part to a NBA-stub?--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] ([[User talk:Thomas.macmillan|talk]]) 15:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
****Oh, I missed that.  I have a sneaking suspicion that if we create a {{tl|NBA-stub}}, it'll end up on numerous bios and the like, spuriously.  If we can scope the text in such a way as to make that less likely, all to the good.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|2000s power metal album stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
The metal albums are relentless!  Only plus side is, the 18 months the crapflood of all these album stubs will be divided into {{cl|2010s album stubs}}, which it's remotely conceivable might take the load off for a while!  Or not!  At any rate, 73 of these.  "Doom metal" is following along, currently at 53...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''support''' also template and (and cat if it creeps over 60) for doom metal. (I recently sorted these and wouldn't be surprised if Doom goes over)[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 15:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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===Italian art - need a more generic stub===
{{sfp top|create upmerged Italy-art-stub}}
I've been coming across various articles about paintings and art collections in Italy that have been tagged with {{tl|Italy-artist-stub}} to indicate a connection with art in Italy because there isn't a {{tl|Italy-artist-stub}}. I've now switched them to {{tl|Italy-stub}} but given that we have various "specific" Italian art stub types, it would be nice to have a more "generic", "catchall" stub.  I'd guess there's probably 15-20 articles in the general {{tl|art-stub}} and {{tl|Italy-artist-stub}} categories, and I'd guess 40 or more generic Italy stubs that would fit. There could be scope for art stubs in other countries as well? [[User:FlagSteward|FlagSteward]] ([[User talk:FlagSteward|talk]]) 15:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:I'd support a double-upmerged template until such time as the numerosity situation becomes clearer.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Tamil Nadu geography stubs}}:  regional lumping?===
{{sfp top|create upmerged templates by district}}
Another oversized Indian state, with "too many" districts:  I can't find anything with more than 40 articles.  If I can find some regions to upmerge to that I can get away with...  The TN article mentions the regions of [[Chettinad]] and [[Tirunelveli]], as well as four [[Tamil_Nadu_Police#Zones]].  These could stand to be better-defined, though.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 12:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:those regions seem to be subdivisions of the districts and I don't think the Police districts are much use as I can't find any where saying which districts fall where.  It may be a case of templates for each district and hoping something reaches 60 sooner rather than later unless someone can come up with something better. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|2000s rock album stubs}} subtypes===
{{sfp create}}
*{{cl|2000s hard rock album stubs}} 92
*{{cl|2000s folk rock album stubs}} 67
In the latter case, I'm taking the liberty of inferring "folk rock" from simultaneous presence in a "rock" stub type, and a "folk" permcat...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 01:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' seems a reasonble inferance.
*'''Support''' with same nit as picked above: {{cl|2000s hard rock album stubs}} and {{cl|2000s folk rock album stubs}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
**Thanks, fixed.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|contract law stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
70 of these by category.  Parent is traditionally (and currently) oversized.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 23:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|psychology stubs}}: subtypes by branch, or thereabouts?===
{{sfp top|create as originally proposed, and get on with the Antarctica stubs already!}}
*{{cl|social psychology stubs}} 437
*{{cl|clinical psychology stubs}} 196
*{{cl|perception stubs}} 72
*{{cl|educational psychology stubs}} 67
There's also the previously-mooted prospect of a {{cl|psychiatry stubs}}, which would be populable on the face of it, at 176 according to the cat-hierarchy: unsurprisingly, though, about 114 of those are also candidates for clin-psych.

I'd propose to start with {{cl|social psychology}}, since that has has the largest number of direction categorisations, so seems the safest bet, and work from there.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 21:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:There's bound to be some overlap, butt I'd say go for it. I'd be tempted to make the perception category a {{cl|Perception and psychophysics stubs}}, since the two are so closely allied, but then I'll admit to bias on that point. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::There's not an obvious parent in the permcat hierarchy for those two, so perhaps you should be rebiasing those, in the first instance...  I skipped {{cl|cognition}} as ludicrously broad in categorical terms, and {{cl|cognitive psychology}} turns up not in "branches", but in "theories".  Is that a better axis?  Search me.  If they happened to get a moment in between sorting {{cl|Antarctica stubs}} (hint, hint), perhaps someone familiar with this area could examine the permcats for sanity of mapping to various stub options...  (hint, hint, hint!)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Hey, don't look at me - I've been too busy shovelling out some of the backlog at SFD :) And until someone explains this East/West Antarctica business definitively to a part of the world than never uses those terms (i.e., everywhere outside the US), I'm not likely to sort much there... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Oh.  Maybe we should be looking at a split of the Antarctics that does actually conform to the permcats, then...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 02:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::I'd definitely agree to that - {{tl|SouthOrkney-geo-stub}}, {{tl|SouthShetland-geo-stub}}, {{tl|RossDependency-geo-stub}} and {{tl|AntarcticPeninsula-geo-stub}} would all match the permcats and make far more sense as far as I'm concerned. But this is all getting to be a bit too much of a digression, no? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 06:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
:OK you two, so what about the psych stubs?? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 22:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC) <small>uppity new admin</small>
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==={{cl|anime and manga stubs}} subtypes===
{{sfp create}}
*{{cl|manga series stubs}} 392
**{{cl|1990s manga stubs}} 65
**{{cl|2000s manga stubs}} 109
Another long-term oversized type, that I submit we have to bite the bullet on sooner or later.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 20:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:I assume the 1990 & 2000 cats should be {{cl|1990s manga series stubs}} etc or am I miss reading this somewhere. Assuming no miss reading '''Support''' [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 14:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::For some reason, "series" doesn't appear in the by-decade permcats.  I don't know if there's any particular logic to that.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:::In that case I'll support anyway. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 14:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|head and neck stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
To help deal with the {{cl|anatomy stubs}} -- again, all other/betters ideas also sought.  No apparent problem with size here:  I see over 100, plus would supercat {{cl|eye stubs}} and {{cl|dentistry stubs}}, I assume.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:Skull stubs were approved back in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/October_2006#Anatomy_subtypes|October 2006]]; does this help? your archivist, [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 18:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|medical term stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
I count 53 of these, and the med-stubs are, is as traditional, huge.  Anyone find another 7 for me, advocate winking at the shortfall, or think of a better idea?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' idea but I know we have a {{Cl|Martial arts terminology stubs}} so are we using term or terminology in any other categories. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 21:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::The permcats in both instances appear to use "term", so I'd go with that.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|pharmacology stubs}} subtypes===
{{sfp create}}
This is a long-term-oversized stub type with huge and twisty category tree that I'm going to propose tackling in a fairly gradualist manner, so as to try to minimise overlap, and incoherent transitivity of the category tree.
*{{cl|Cannabinoid stubs}} 60
*{{cl|Anxiolytic stubs}} 68
I may have more to follow during the run of this proposal, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:Strongly suggest getting [[WP:PHARM]] project support for this 1st :-) [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 19:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::They've been notified.  Last time I checked, their only comment was to quibble about the link being broken (in a fairly obviously fixable manner).  Beyond that, qui tacet consentire videtur.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|2000s pop album stubs}} subtypes===
{{sfp create}}
Yes, oversized!  What, you guessed?  Some possibility to re-sort s'more to {{cl|2000s pop rock album stubs}} and to {{cl|2000s indie pop album stubs}}, but those won't hold us for long, if at all.  In due course I suspect we'll be needing:
*{{cl|2000s dance-pop album stubs}} 42
*{{cl|2000s teen pop album stubs}} 34
If they can't be made viable in the short-term, I may have to settle for upmerged templates.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:'''support''' as upmerged templates till they reach 60. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 08:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Malabar geography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
The Kerala-geos are oversized, no single district appears to be over threshold.  Suggest upmerged templates, feeding into historic regions, starting with this one.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 00:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:[[Districts of Kerala]] seem to suggest there are 14 districts, atleast one of which must be oversized (800/14=57ish).  So maybe upmerged templates for each district and some hand sorting will find atleast one district over 60.  otherwsie we will have to go with Malabar. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 07:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
::Good point!  I was simply going by infobox data, which must be somewhat sparse.  Sounds like if someone hand-sorts we'll be, well, sorted...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Smoking stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
Sub-stubs could subsequently be created for tobacco, pipe smoking, etc. My use case here is [[Dokha]], which I've just created. — [[User:Hex|<span style="color:#000">'''Hex'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Hex|<span title="Hex's talk page"><span style="color:#000">(❝</span>'''<span style="color:#900">?!</span>'''<span style="color:#000">❞)</span></span>]] 02:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:Are there enough of them to warrant even one stub type? There used to be a stub type for this a couple of years ago, but IIRC it was deleted as being virtually totally unused. I realise WP has grown a lot since then, but I still wonder just how useful this would be. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
::It was {{tl|tobacco-stub}} which was itself a expansion of {{tl|cigar-stub}}.  It was deleted back in April 2006, before we started having upmerged stubs as a possibility.  If {{tl|smoking-stub}} were to also include cannabis, I think it would have enough to support an upmerged stub template to {{cl|Psychoactive drug stubs}}. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 03:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Yeah... that might work. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 06:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:::That's in line with the permcats, certainly, though of course MJ isn't always smoked, so it's not a ''completely'' clean split by substance.  But certainly an upmerged template seems like a good plan.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 11:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Perhaps something like {{tl|recreational-drug-stub}} might be a cleaner and wider-scoped solution? That would certainly have close to the numbers for its own category, and could even conceivably take {{cl|Tea and coffee stubs}} as a subtype. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 12:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::...then again, it looks like there is no {{cl|Recreational drugs}}, so perhaps that's a non-starter, sadly. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 12:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::If I recall correctly the gist of the discussion when we were splitting up the pharm-stubs, there was ''strong'' opposition from the nearest-neighbour WPJ about anything that even had a ''whiff'' of a "recreational drugs" vs. "pharmaceutical medicines" demarcation.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 12:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Taking a look at the perm cats, it looks like one possibility might be {{cl|Medicinal herb and fungi stubs}} (permcat {{cl|Medicinal herbs and fungi}}) as a child of both {{cl|Pharmacology stubs}} and {{cl|Plant stubs}}, though the permcat needs work too.  By the way, it also looks like {{cl|Hallucinogen stubs}} is in need of a rename to {{cl|Psychedelic, dissociative and deliriant stubs}} to match the change in name several years ago of its parent from {{cl|Hallucinogens}} to {{cl|Psychedelics, dissociatives and deliriants}}. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 17:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
:Odd one:  looks as if the one was moved shortly after the other was created, making them a mismatch for almost their entire joint existence.  I support hauling this off to SFR, unless someone can think of some technical excuse, or wishes to boldly IAR, for renaming.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 09:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
::"Joint existence"? Hm. In any case, yes, a rename looks like it might be necessary. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 01:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
:::As in "the period of time when both were extant".  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 08:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
*It looks like there are over 100 articles under {{cl|Smoking}} that could qualify, in such categories as cigars, cigarette brands, pipe smoking, cigarette rolling papers, tobacco cessation, and cannabis. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 20:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

{{sfp create}}

'''Create'''
*'''{{tl|Opera-bio-stub}}'''
*'''{{tl|Opera-struct-stub}}''' 
*'''{{tl|Italian-opera-stub}}''' 
*'''{{tl|French-opera-stub}}''' 
*'''{{tl|English-opera-stub}}''' 
*'''{{tl|German-opera-stub}}''' 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

==={{cl|Opera stubs}} split -- deja vu all over again===
Recall these?  How we split them by language?  They were mass-undone for our trouble.   Two axes appear to be viable:
*{{cl|18th century opera stubs}} 95
*{{cl|19th century opera stubs}} 140
*{{cl|20th century opera stubs}} 120
''or''
*{{cl|Italian-language opera stubs}} 140
*{{cl|French-language opera stubs}} 103
*{{cl|English-language opera stubs}} 78
*{{cl|German-language opera stubs}} 56
I don't mind which, just so long as it sticks this time, and whatever WPJ input we might get is at least vaguely stub-guideline compliant.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:Might be an idea to speak to the Opera project to see what they want, It was one of them that undid the split I believe. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] ([[User talk:Waacstats|talk]]) 17:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::Which is one reason I'm highly hesitant about their "input".  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::::[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera/Archive_47#Stubs:_replacement_of_the_opera_stub_by_separate_.27opera_by_language.27_stubs|Here]] is the discussion wherein the opera folks decided on a course and acted upon it (without, I believe, discussing it here). <s>I have suggested that they come by and give us their 2 pfennige.</s> El Grutness beat me to it. <g> [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 03:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] (of WP:WSS) was invited to take part in the discussion - just as I invited you to take part in the current one. When a large number of articles are involved it's ''essential'' to talk to all involved.  --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 06:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::Actually, it was me who invited you to takee part in the current discussion. Since it's a stub-related issue, the discussions take place here, which is the central site for all stub-related discussions. As I said at the time of my invitation, anyone from the Opera project is more than welcome to join in here to help find the best way to split this category. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 09:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The discussion can't take place if no-one informs us. '''Why did it take 6 days to tell the Opera Project?''' --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 11:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Given the nature of the "input" (rampant [[WP:OWN]]ership, bold-faced melodrama, and demands that we ignore all normal stub-sorting criteria), and just how predictable that all was, I think a more pressing question is, why did we bother informing you at all?  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 12:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::'''You didn't'''.  I discovered the changes being made and a message was hastily put on the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera|Opera Project]]. And you quote [[WP:OWN]]ership! Well, this is certainly owned by you. Nobody else knew about it! --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 14:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::That's a remarkable construction on events.  I think you might need to also review [[WP:AGF]].  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I've just informed the Opera Wproject. Hopefully we'll get some clearer idea from them which is the more appropriate. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 03:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:The previous discussion indicated that WP:Opera was most interested in classification by composer, which because few composers will have 60 operas let alone 60 stub articles about their operas, doesn't work well for stub sorting. However there's another axis that might work, though it doesn't match the existing categories.
:*{{tl|Austria-opera-stub}} / {{cl|Opera by Austrian composer stubs}}
:*{{tl|France-opera-stub}} / {{cl|Opera by French composer stubs}}
:*{{tl|Germany-opera-stub}} / {{cl|Opera by German composer stubs}}
:*{{tl|Italy-opera-stub}} / {{cl|Opera by Italian composer stubs}}
:* etc.
:Just throwing out another idea. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 03:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::That sounds fine to me, if the operistas would find it useful/acceptable/something they wouldn't unilaterally revert without at least telling us.  A bit harder to bot-crunch, for the reasons you mention.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

'''''Please''''' have the courtesy to stop changing these cats until the editors at the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera|Opera Project]] had had a chance to comment. I see some 60 or 70 changes have already been made to opera stubs by [[User:Pegship|Pegship]]  - changing librettists' opera stubs into playwrights stubs etc. Can this please stop? For your information we had a similar situation in December (see '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera/Archive_47#Stubs:_replacement_of_the_opera_stub_by_separate_.27opera_by_language.27_stubs|here]]'''). At that time '''the Opera Project decided against subdividing the stub tag/cat by language.''' --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 04:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::I have been sorting out the ''people'' in {{cl|Opera stubs}} into other more appropriate stub cats - such as {{tl|playwright-stub}} for librettists, {{tl|theat-bio-stub}} for managers, {{tl|composer-stub}}, {{tl|opera-singer-stub}} &c. A librettist is not an opera, thus does not belong in a stub category for operas. Splitting the stubs by language or period creates necessary distinctions for editors who may specialize in those areas, not to mention breaking the stubs cats into workable sizes, which is less likely to deter editors than a 700+ category. The stub system is not "owned" by either the Opera project ''or'' the stub project; the Opera project knows opera, the WPSS knows stubs. Trust us. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 05:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Stubs are part of a larger system.''' If you remove the opera stub it means that the article may not be picked up by bot (or manual) sorting and put in [[:Category:WikiProject Opera articles]]. It then falls off the radar and is ''not'' picked up in bot-created cleanup listing etc. (The project has about 5,000 articles so maintenance is demanding.) It also means that the article is picked up by an unrelated project. 
:::There is little logic behind the changes you are making. Somebody who has spent his whole life in opera administration should not be given a {{tl|theat-bio-stub}} (with subsequent bannering by the unrelated Theatre project). Someone who is only notable as an opera librettist should not be given a {{tl|playwright-stub}} (with a similar result). 
:::The Opera Project is ''using'' the stubs everyday. Why not trust them to decide what is practical?  --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 06:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 
::::The stub-sorting project is using them every day, too - and finding the size of the category to be nearing the point at which it needs splitting. You seem to be a little confused about what stub templates are, though you're right about one thing: stubs are indeed party of a much larger system - larger than just your one WikiProject. There are thousands of stub types covering over half a million articles. They are ''not'' for the benefit of any one specific WikiProject; they are intended to be used by all editors across the entirety of Wikipedia. If you want articles to be marked for sorting by a specific WikiProject, you should use a WP talk-page banner assessment template. I find your comment that the article might be in danger of being picked up by another project both faintly concerning - if another WikiProject improves the article, has harm been done? Or are you for some reason jealous that one of [[WP:OWN|your project's articles]] might be edited by other editors? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 09:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' It's fine as it is. Splitting the stub by language, period, composers or whatever is impractical. It only creates unnecessary maintenance work  - and acts as a deterrent to new editors who will be put off by complicated choices. If it ain't broke. . .  --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 04:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
**'''Comment'''  A stub category with over 800 articles is considered broken because it is too large, and this tye is nearing being broken.  That said, a librettist who is not notable for non-operatic work should probably be double stubbed with both ''playwright-stub'' and ''opera-stub'' (which is about the genre, not just for individual operas, as its parent cat is {{cl|Opera}} not {{cl|Operas}}.  Perhaps {{tl|opera-bio-stub}}/{{cl|Opera biography stubs}} as a catchall for the various opera related professions? <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 05:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' No one involved in opera editing has said the stub category is broken. The project has just had bot runs without any related problems. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 06:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
***(ec)'''Further background''': There was a discussion in both [[Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/April/10|Deletion]] ''and'' [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/April_2007#Operas_by_language|Proposals]] about operas by language, in April 2007. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 05:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
****Perhaps no-one involved in opera editing said that the stub category was close to being broken because none of them are regularly involved in stub sorting. If they had been, they would probably have proposed some form of split here themselves. But that is beside the point. The point is that from the point of view of stub sorting, this category needs splitting. As such, a split is likely to happen sometime soon. It would be nice if we could find a way to split this that is not going to cause problems for the opera project - and as such it would be useful for us if you could suggest the best possible split, given that a split by individual composers is unlikely to work. From the point of view of usual stub-sorting practice, some splitr that in some way mirrors that of the permanent categories would make most sense, but if a different method is preferable, please suggest it. We have suggested two possibilities - if one of them is to your liking, fine; if a different split is more preferable, tell us what.[[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 09:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Strong see what I mean?'''  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 10:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Question & suggestions''' One of those painful 'operistas' here.;-) I can see why there would be a need to do split some of these large cats, and understand your reasons. I think the question becomes, how best can it be done without sacrificing accuracy and causing unecessary work and/or confusion for either the Stub-sorting Project or the Opera Project. At the moment there are 714 articles in [[:Category:Opera stubs]]. If all the articles there that were not about a specific opera were removed, that would take it pretty well below the "broken" criteria, even without splitting the operas themselves into subcategories. There are a couple of issues with subcategorizing the operas themselves, especially by composer nationality. First of all, it can lead to inaccuracies re what their nationality actually is given the changes in the map of Europe over the last 300 years. If anything, sub cats by century would be better and clearcut and possibly produce fewer separate stubs for the OP editors to deal with. But even then, you'd have 6 different stubs and starting with the 16th century and the first one would have potenially only 1 member. It's sort of pain for people writing articles on operas. Could we avoid this by having a sub cat for "Opera related bios", e.g. a catchall for the non-singers - librettists, opera critics, opera adminstrators etc. as [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] suggested above? Plus perhaps another sub cat for "Opera related topic" to mop up articles about opera companies, organizations, houses, publications, etc.? That would leave the OP with only 4 stub cats to deal with - 1 for individual operas, 1 for opera singers, 1 for opera-related bios, and 1 for all other opera-related topics. I wouldn't find that hard to cope with and actually think it might be an improvement on our current system. Best, [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 13:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::* To clarify: at the moment the project lists 4 stubs:  
:::*General opera topics: <nowiki>{{opera-stub}}</nowiki> (715 articles)
:::*Opera singers: <nowiki>{{opera-singer-stub}}</nowiki> (552 articles)
:::*Composers: <nowiki>{{composer-stub}}</nowiki> (shared with other projects) (480 articles total)
:::*European opera houses: <nowiki>{{euro-struct-stub}}</nowiki> (very little used by Opera) (276 articles total)
::It's worth noting that many other classical music stubs cats are large, e.g. Conductors (546 articles), Classical composition stubs (513 articles) etc. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 14:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::We could get rid of <nowiki>{{euro-struct-stub}}</nowiki> as one used by the OP. Not only is it very generic, it's no help for stubs about opera houses outside Europe.[[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 15:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Well, use by the project is negligible. It's a survival from ancient times. I couldn't even get a figure for it. We can de-list it - but it's not an issue. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 15:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 
::::You may or may not want to list it on your project page, but opera house stubs certainly ''should'' have some sort of -struct-stub tag on them (in addition to opera-stub):  bear in mind they're not just of operatic interest, they're very often of local and/or architectural significance as well.  Accordingly it's appropriate to have them (also) in a stub category that facilitates those editors as well.  Of course, an operahouse-stub (or opera-struct-stub, to be strictly hierarchicalist about it) is also something to be kept under consideration...  (There's seem to be about 31 of them tagged as opera-stubs, there might of course be more lurking around elsewhere.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::There are a handful more in {{cl|Theatre (structure) stubs}}, at least half a dozen in {{cl|Music venue stubs}}, and probably more in other places. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 01:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
**It's not necessary, nor necessarily the case, that you all be painful. :)  Firstly. at the current size level, it's not quite on the "officially oversized list", so if it would be helpful to 'adjourn with a view to medium-term contemplation', I'm not opposed to doing so.   OTOH if we're just going to have the same issues arise next time it makes it onto [[WP:WSS/T|the to-do list]], perhaps better that we seize the nettle sooner rather than later.  A split between actual-operas and opera-related topics seems like a good first step, though if neither is further subdivided, it does somewhat create the need for a somewhat artificial naming distinction, since by naming convention both {{cl|opera}} and {{cl|operas}} would map onto the existing {{tl|opera-stub}}/{{cl|opera stubs}} names, due to our 'avoiding double plurals' consideration.  (We would ideally come up with some generic scheme for such cases, since this isn't the first time such clashes have arisen.)  I'd wince a little at {{cl|opera topic stubs}} or {{cl|opera-related stubs}}, {{cl|opera-related topic stubs}}, or something along those lines, but it would be a level of pain I could deal with under suitable medication.
**On by-century:  what we'd do is to create templates for all possible/sensible centuries, for the sake of consistency, but for the 'undersized' ones (16th and 17th) we'd "upmerge" them, either to the existing parent, or to some "consolidated" pre-18th (or perhaps pre-19th) category.  But I can't comment on whether it's a good or useful split in and of itself.  (I know that certainly ''some'' scholars of opera are especially concerned with particular periods or particular languages, but that doesn't much help us if that doesn't align with the army-that-we-have-that-we-go-to-war-with.)
**An {{tl|opera-bio-stub}} seems like an unqualifiedly good idea.  As it'd have the existing {{cl|opera-singer-stub}} as a subtype, we can cut it some slack on size considerations, and if the worst comes to the worst, upmerge it too, for now.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 14:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::(Edit conflict) There would be no point in seesawing articles between two equally large stub categories - the one getting larger while the other gets smaller - that's what would happen if we moved people into a new super-biography stub with <nowiki>{{opera-singer-stub}}</nowiki>. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 15:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::And that isn't what was proposed.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
***How about {{tl|all-opera-stuff-that-doesn't-fit-anywhere-else-stub}} or {{tl|random-opera-blither-stub}}? Just joking. Anyhow, we could start with {{tl|opera-bio-stub}} and see how far that gets the Opera Stubs cat down before going any further? But it doesn't solve the problem of separating "the other stuff" from stubs about actual operas. I can't speak for the rest of the OP, but I'd personally find it useful for those stubs to be eventually separated out, provided it didn't cause too many problems for either project and/or its name wasn't too wince-inducing. [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 14:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::VDT: At present we have ''two'' large stubs - 'Opera" and 'Opera Singer' . The problem with turning this into three - Opera, Opera-singer and Opera-not-singer-bio - is that there are relatively ''few'' non-singer, non-composer biographical articles. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 15:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::You may well be correct about that:  that's why I included the caveat about an upmerged template.  It's hard to get a reliable count from the category information I have to hand, since it's outdated wrt the recent re-sorting, the bios aren't in any single opera-related permcat subtree, and not all the candidates will have been tagged with opera-stub, anyway.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree that the Opera stub category is verging on too large; so changes should be made so it doesn't get to that point.  Here's my basic idea of what would be useful.
*{{tl|opera-stub}} for all articles related to Opera that do not fit into one of the sub-templates
*{{tl|opera-singer-stub}} for Opera singers (Maybe break into sub-templates by nationalities with over 70 people)
*{{tl|opera-composer-stub}} For composers related to the Opera field
*{{tl|opera-struct-stub}} For all Opera houses and similar places.
*{{tl|euro-opera-struct-stub}} For consistency we change {{tl|euro-struct-stub}} to fit with the new scheme.
How's that look? [[User:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">§hep</span>]]  •  [[User talk:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">¡Talk to me!</span>]] 16:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:There's not enough articles to have to worry about the same thing [[WP:FOOTBALL]] does atleast. :D [[User:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">§hep</span>]]  •  [[User talk:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">¡Talk to me!</span>]] 16:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::As far as those structure ones go, there should be enough for a category (I reckon just over 60) with the euro- template upmerged to it with just over 30. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 17:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::(ec)That's a pretty good scheme at the template level (categories we can judge on a size basis as things go along).  The only quibble I'd have is that the euro- one isn't a very useful template:  better to replace it with country-specific templates, ideally.  (Those can then feed into both a country-related and an opera-related category.)  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 17:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I'd have to agree with you there, I just wasn't sure what the norm was here at SS. [[User:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">§hep</span>]]  •  [[User talk:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">¡Talk to me!</span>]] 17:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
====Numbers====
This is a bit of an arbitrary section break as it's getting awfully long to edit easily. (Feel free to remove it).  Even so, it might be worth looking at numbers. I've just had a look over the Opera Stub Cat. [[User:Kleinzach|Kleinzach]] is right. There are relatively few non-singer bios in there, at most 10. So I don't know how much mileage we'd get out of a an "opera bio" cat. Overall there are about 135 "non-operas" in there - the vast majority are for companies, festivals and houses. There are also a few miscatergorized ones in there which we can remove now. But presumably not all the ones which [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] removed have been restored?. It's also the case, that quite a few of those articles may not be stubs at all - they have been expanded without removing the tag. That would take some time to check, but would further reduce the size. If this project really considers that our current "Opera and opera related stub" cat is too big at about 715 or will soon become too big, what else can be done? 

Just have an extra {{tl|opera related-topic-stub}}? Breaking down by century, language, or composer nationality (apart from the inherent problems with composer nationality) leaves the problem of what do you do with the opera-related articles? They won't fit in those sub cats because they're not operas. Would it be the case that they just appear in the current cat but not in the subcats, e.g. 19th century operas, etc.? I don't think [[User:Stepshep|§hep]]'s proposal of an {{tl|opera-composer-stub}} is viable or would reduce numbers much, since my understanding is that the current opera stub isn't used for them anyway. There are no stubs at the moment in "Opera" which are about composers. The only other way to reduce numbers significantly is to have some stub that includes both opera houses and opera companies.

Alternatively, if the threshold hasn't been passed and looks like it won't happen for a while, especially if we can naturally prune that category, perhaps we could put off making any changes until it's absolutely necessary. Or at least until the autumn? An awful lot of OP members are going to be away or already are away for the summer. Just a thought. Best, [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 17:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::That's a realistic summary of the situation. I've been keeping figures on the ratio of stubs to non-stubs and it has been falling. We are gradually moving articles beyond the stub stage and that should remain the focus of our activity. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:The idea for the opera-composer-stub was because it was stated that composer-stub has overlap with many projects.  This would remove that issue and all articles in [[:Category:Opera composers]] could be checked to see if the tag fits (of which there are stubs).  Not all of my proposal was just to reduce the numbers, but also to sort things a little better.  Also, as I proposed all articles that didn't fit into one of the sub-templates would go under the main opera-stub; as is what many other projects do.  I hope that explains the point I'm trying to put across. [[User:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">§hep</span>]]  •  [[User talk:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">¡Talk to me!</span>]] 17:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::[[:Category:Opera composers]] is not exclusive. Yes, we've discussed this Composers/Opera overlap before - but the variability of a composer's involvement with opera means  {{tl|opera-composer-stub}} would be impractical. It would just encourage multiple stubbing. A (rediscovered) Mozart would end up with 'opera composer', 'symphony composer', 'piano concerto composer' etc. etc. stubs. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::I'm guessing that relatively few composers will be notable exclusively for operas, so it may not be very applicable (unless it's used in addition to another composer tag, which doesn't really represent a lot of progress).  I do still think that an opera-bio ''template'' is a sensible step, but that's not enough for a separate category, and even if it were, it doesn't represent a lot of numerical mileage.  Voce, you're exactly correct about the "relateds":  if we split all the operatic works (by century or by other means), that would leave ''only'' the remainder in the parent, so it solves the question of splitting out those without having to contrive a name for that class.  That's not sufficient justification in itself for a split of the works, but it would be a pleasant side-effect, from my point of view at least, if that would itself be useful.  If most of your non-works are "organisations" of some sort, an {{tl|opera-org-stub}} would achieve a somewhat similar effect, without creating an arbitrary-sounding "related" category.
::715 is "large but not oversized" in terms of our quasi-canonical list, and admittedly-arbitrary size threshold.  However, if most of Peg's re-sorting efforts get reverted, we may be back there relatively quickly, and it seems odds-on that without some sort of splitting scheme we'll get there sooner or later, as it seems to be a near-universal law for the vast majority of stub types.  The most useful split is likely to be one that not just makes not just organisational sense, but that has the most likelihood of being "differentially expanded" by particular groups of editors.  I don't know which of the ideas floated here pass that test best, but it ought not to be beyond the wit of man to devise one.  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 18:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the easiest split would be this: change the scope of {{tl|Opera-stub}} to only cover the operas themselves, and create a new {{tl|Operatic-stub}} or similar to cover all other opera-related stub articles. The idea of a separate template (and possibly category) for opera houses is a good one, too. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 00:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:The problem with having {{tl|Opera-stub}} and {{tl|Operatic-stub}} is that no-one would be able to distinguish between them. I (and VocediTenore) check the new articles. Only about half the editors know how to use the ''existing'' stubs. Give them a choice between 'Opera' and 'Operatic': Editor A will probably use one type and Editor B will probably use the other. This leaves the main editors at Opera Project with hours and hours of donkey work switching around stubs. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
::It would still be a fairly clear and sensible split - and a useful one, too, I would have thought -  and the difference would be explained on the templates and categories themselves. As to explaining to editors which one to use, given that most of the editors sorting are either in this project or yours, informing them of which to use shouldn't be too hard a job. If a better name for operatic-stub could be found, though, it would be good - one that make it clear it's not for the works themselves. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Unfortunately most stub articles are started by new editors unaware of any instructions. They usually copy some article that they have found as a model. The Opera Project editors usually work to start class standard. We discourage starting articles that stay permanently as stubs. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 02:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm afraid I'd tend to agree with KZ on the naming issue:  neither that or the various other possibilities discussed earlier are at all obvious or natural, either at template or category level.  Probably about the only reliable thing to do would be to create ''two'' name stub types, one for operatic works and one for opera-related topics, and turn the existing type into effectively a "container", cum holding pen for articles not yet re-split.  I won't claim that's in the least elegant, just that it would avoid mis-tagging by default.  Normally we end up finessing this by having a more thoroughgoing split in the first place, as I described earlier...  [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 02:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Here are '''updated figures: Opera stub =727, Opera singer stubs = 555''' (I've done a check, removed some misstubbing, and finished reverting Pegship's mistakes). The figures could be reduced by 10 to 20% if the opera editors checked through the articles and uprated those that have now developed beyond stub stage. This would be the most practical solution.--''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 02:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

====Grutness: ''"lengthy irrelevant digression"''====

I take issue with the word "mistakes". A more neutral term might be "changes", or perhaps "work". [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 03:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
:There were many less neutral alternatives to 'mistakes' available but I decided against using them. On the contrary, and despite the circumstances, I preferred to make the assumption that that your basic intentions were not bad. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 11:22, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
::There were also more positive terms which could have been used, and since Pegship was carrying out a split that had been agreed to here, it was hardly a mistake on her part. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 01:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
::::So it was a mistake on the part of the group as a whole? Is that what you suggesting? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 04:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::On the contrary. Quite clearly it wasn't a mistake of any kind. It was deliberate work, undertaken affter a decision was reached through a standard stub-splitting discussion. Calling it a "mistake" suggests that it was somehow wrong for Peg to have done that work. it wasn't wrong. Suggesting it was a mistake on the part of WP:WSS suggests that there was something wrong with the discussion, or that no discussion should have takeen place. This also isn't the case. As such, using the term "mistake", which implies that things were either done accidentally or not in accord with standard practice, is both wrong and seemingly deliberately emotive. Please try to use less biased language when discussing Peg's perfectly legitimate work. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 06:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

::::Yes, I don't understand this either. When we complained that well over 100 articles been changed with no notice at all to the Opera Project until 6 days after it began, we were told by [[User:Alai|Alai]] that there was no plan being implemented and things like changing opera librettists to playwrights (and presumably also starting to remove [[:Category:Operas]] from all actual operas) weren't part of the current proposal.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera&diff=next&oldid=223553336] Now [[User:Grutness|Grutness]] says that they '''are''' part of a plan agreed here (prior to notifying the OP). 

::::So which is it? If it is part of a plan you all agreed, then those edits were not "mistakes", from the WPSS point of view. But in terms of accuracy, I'd consider it a mistake to tag an article about a writer known only for their opera libretti as being a "about a playwright" instead of "about an opera or opera-related topic". Ditto removing the current "opera or opera-related" stub and replacing it with "theatre bio" for someone who spent their entire career directing operas or running opera houses, and whose principal notability derives from that. Ditto adding {{tl|opera-singer-stub}} to [[Ioan Holender]] who had a very brief non-notable career as a singer, but then became a theatrical agent in 1966 and is chiefly notable the director of the Vienna State Opera for the last 17 years. In that sense "mistake" doesn't imply bad faith at all, quite the contrary.

::::Also, can you all clarify whether it had been the WPSS intention to completely remove [[:Category:Operas]] from all actual operas? If so, why? We use that cat for all operas, regardless of their subclassifications by composer, genre, etc., to enable readers to access a single page with an alphabetical list of all operas with articles in Wikipedia, with the added benefit of links to the operas subclassified. I'd consider it a mistake on the part of WPSS to remove a really useful tool for readers. [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 07:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::Well, as far as the last point is concerned, WP:WSS doesn't have anything to do with removing permcats from articles - we're only bothered with stub cats (although we'll add permcats if there aren't any on an article). So we've got no reason to even think about the permanent {{cl|Operas}}. As far as the earlier point is concerned, bio-stubs (i.e., stubs about specific people) are generally not included in stub categories for the general subject - they usually have specific categories relating to biographies. As such, it wouldn't be normal practice for {{cl|Opera stubs}} to contain biographies of librettists, any more than, say, for {{cl|Geography stubs}} to contain articles about cartographers. As such, it is normal practice to remove bio-stubs from categories about specific subjects, and to replace them with some specific bio-stub type - it's not specifically connected to discussions about splitting this category, but it is quite often the case that a discussion about whether a category needs splitting will lead to it getting a bit more attention and a bit of a clean-up (which would include removing any incorrectly assigned stubs). Unfortunately, in the current case, there is not a specific librettist-stub or theatricalagent-stub (hence discussions above about a possible opera-bio-stub). Perhaps upmerged templaes of those types could be considered, but chances are they would still be upmerged to categories that are strictly-speaking only approximations of what they should be. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 09:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::Here is an example of Pegship removing [[:Category:Operas]], see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=L%27impresario_in_angustie&diff=223378168&oldid=220468511]. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 09:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::And here are five more examples: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=La_naissance_d%27Osiris&diff=prev&oldid=223378318], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Le_donne_rivali&diff=prev&oldid=223378419]; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eine_florentinische_Trag%C3%B6die&diff=prev&oldid=223366490]; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Il_barone_di_Troccia&diff=prev&oldid=223377902],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Le_postillon_de_Lonjumeau&diff=prev&oldid=223378558]. Presumably this would have gone on had Kleinzach not asked that it be stopped. And [[User:Grutness|Grutness]], I understand your point about our current "opera and opera related" stub not being "normal practice", but it doesn't cover the error of adding a singer bio stub to someone not notable as a singer ([[Ioan Holender]]) or adding [[:Category:Opera directors]] to someone who is a conductor has never directed an opera in his life ([[Giuseppe Patanè]]). All we're asking is that care be taken to avoid this kind of stuff, and that the wholesale and extremely unhelpful '''removal''' of [[:Category:Operas]] from articles about actual operas be stopped. I take it from your comments above, that the category removal was not part of the WPSS proposal and isn't going happen again. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't mind at all if you call it a "mistake" on my part. ;-) [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 10:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:Having a look at them, these seem like perfectly normal edits. They're not stub-sorting - though they may have been done at the same time - but they seem like perfectly reasonable tidying. There's no point in having articles in a parent permanent category if they're already in several of that permcat's child categories - as is the case in all these examples. These clearly aren't mistakes - they're standard edits. To quote [[Wikipedia:Categories]], ''In the "vertical" dimension, Wikipedia has traditionally been more frugal, placing articles only in the most specific categories they reasonably fit in.'' That is - articles in, say {{cl|French-language operas}} and {{cl|1754 operas}} have no need of also being in {{cl|Operas}}, and indeed it is traditional Wikipedia practuice to remove them from these more general parents. There was clearly no mistake in any of those edits. They may not have been stub edits, but I'm noit at all surprised that they occurred, and I can see no reason why they shouldn't have.
:As to the changes in the bio-stubs, you're right about Patanè - that appears to have been a slip. As to Holender, the article clearly states that he was a baritone, which is a term usually applied primarily to singers rather than theatrical agents. Was he, or was he not a singer? Clearly he was - although this was only part of his career. As such, opera-singer-stub is an appropriate stub, though an additional second stub template would also have been appropriate. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 12:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Holender was ''not'' notable as a singer. On the other hand he now occupies (arguably) the most important administrative job in the whole opera world. That's why putting the man alongside singers is not appropriate. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 14:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

::[[User:Grutness|Grutness]] wrote: ''In the "vertical" dimension, Wikipedia has traditionally been more frugal, placing articles only in the most specific categories they reasonably fit in.'' Perhaps "traditionally", but it's certainly not universal here or hard and fast policy. Is this an encylopedia for the benefit of its readers or just the benefit of Wikipedia? As I explained above, we use that cat for all operas, regardless of their subclassifications by composer, genre, etc., to enable readers to access a single page with an alphabetical list of all operas with articles in Wikipedia, with the added benefit of links to the operas subclassified. If you want all take umbrage at the word "mistake" fine, and/or discuss the gradations of meaning between "mistake", "inaccuracy", "potentially unhelpful", "slip", fine. But could we please also come to some kind of conclusion as to whether there should be a new {{tl|Opera-related-stub}} and/or {{tl|Opera-bio-stub}} and indeed if this even needs to be done now that our total {{tl|opera-stub}} category is down to 614 and falling. [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 13:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I'm, not quite sure why either of us is continuing with this, really, since you aren't going to convince me that normal editing practice is a mistake, and I'm clearly not going to convince you that normal editing practice is correct. No, it's not policy, it is a guideline - i.e., (in the words of the WP definition of guidelines) generally accepted standard that editors should follow. No, it's not universal - it's just usual practice. if Pegship hadn't done this, someone else would have soon enough. Yes, the encyclopedia is clearly for the benefit primarily of readers, which is why having smaller, more specific categories - rather than large vague categories - is preferable, especially when those specific categories are within a tree that can easily be accessed as subtypes of the vaguer category. Having parent categories as well as subtypes makes articles category-heavy, cluttering up the bottom of the articles. If you want a single alphabetical list, then make a separate list. This is the reason why list pages and categories both exist on Wikipedia. In any case, as you point out, this is completely irrelevant to the subject of stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 14:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[[User:Grutness|Grutness]]: Please read the 'Secondary categorization rule' of [[WP:SUBCAT]]: ''''' "there are some articles which should be in both a subcategory and a parent category."''' ''This is the rule that the Opera Project follow - as explained on the project page. BTW It's a mystery to me why you think categories "clutter up the bottom of the articles" but not multiple stubs.   --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 15:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:Multiple stub categories do clutter up the page - when have I ever said they do not? That's why we try to split stub types so that multiple stubbing is reduced as much as possible. And that is what we should be discussing here - NOT whether you think that our standard work on this project is a mistake or not, when it seems we are simply following a different Wikipedia guideline to the one you are using (if it's a mistake at all, it's a mistake on the part of Wikipedia for having two guidelines which are directly contradictory!) It srtill seems to me that an alphabetical list (separate from a category) would be far more useful for operas, since they could be listed along with the names of the composer, librettist and year, as well as including redlinks to indicate articles yet to be made. But if that's the way you do it, that's the way you do it. Now can we PLEASE get back on topic? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 23:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You continue to second-guess the way another (rather technical) project goes about building its corpus of articles. Why you do this is a complete mystery to me. The music and opera editors don't tell the Gastropod Project what to do, they don't teach rocket science to the rocket scientists, they don't reclassify molecular biology diagrams or redraw maps of Angola, so why do you interfere in the editing of opera articles that you don't understand? 

As for getting back on topic. While you have been attempting to justify the unjustifiable, squirming out of making an apology and writing tendentious headings, the Opera Project has been at work carrying out a major sweep of opera stubs to uprate the (many) articles that have significantly developed over the last year. As I write this, there are now only 578 articles with the opera banner (down from around 750). 

I hope whoever closes this down notes that in future '''''stub reorganization should not be carried out by stealth'''''. When WPWSS believe that re-organization is desirable, '''''they should first ask those directly concerned, in order to get essential background information'''''. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:I give up. I offer a suggestion that seems sensible, on the basis of how other WikiProjects work, and you continue to act as though I'm telling you what to do. You continue to talk about "justifying the unjustifiable", when all I have done is pointed to the relevant guidelines which clearly justify what was done. But all of that is, as I have now pointed out three times, completely beside the point, and this massive digression would never have started if you hadn't insulted Pegship's perfectly legitimate work. I'm not sure why you don't simply start your own Wiki Operatica, since you make it crystal clear that you [[WP:OWN|own]] the opera articles and that anyone else had better watch out if they try to edit them. Perhaps if you put a big sign at the top of each article saying "hands off - onnly Wikiproject opera people are allowed to edit this", it might have made things simpler all round. As to your comments qabout me "squirming out of making an apology and making tendentious heading", may I point out [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Stub_sorting%2FProposals%2F2008%2FJune&diff=224116564&oldid=224112109 who it was who put the first tendentious header on this section] and also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Stub_sorting%2FProposals%2F2008%2FJune&diff=223654818&oldid=223653886 who it was who first started insulting other editors' work] on this page. I have nothing to apologise for, and since you seem incapable of making an apology to Pegship I'm having nothing more to do with this pathetic argument. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small style="color:#008822;">wha?</small>]]'' 02:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's be clear about this. [[User:Pegship|Pegship]] made about 120 unannounced edits to opera artucles. As VocediTenore and I have demonstrated, many of these edits were wrong because she didn't understand about the work of opera librettists, managers, directors etc. and made no attempt to find out. ''This was disruptive.'' The Opera Project does ''not'' own anything here, however like other contributing editors '''we object strongly to time-wasting disruptions'''. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 06:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:Well, I don't object strongly, and while it has been a bit disruptive, it has also resulted in a major stub review at the OP, which was very useful. But I do think this whole thing could have started out in a more helpful way for all concerned. Look at the very top of this discussion. It was begun on June 29th by [[User:Alai|Alai]]. The same day [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] suggested asking the OP for input, and Alai replied that after the previously proposed changes had been objected to and undone he was ''"highly hesitant about their "input""''. Then on July 3rd, after no further discussion here or anywhere else, many opera stubs started being changed. We weren't told that this was being done as preparation for a renewed WPSS proposal to split opera stubs, or even what the proposal involved until July 4th. 

:Nor do I think that the re-stubbing of articles to {{tl|theat-bio-stub}} resulted from the editor not understanding the subject. It was simply a different view of the issues involved. Besides, she caught several singer articles that had been incorrectly stubbed with {{tl|opera-stub}} and corrected them. The problem is/was that suddenly changing the stub classifications (and in some cases categories) for a large body of articles within any project can cause problems for those who are monitoring the contents, looking for areas to improve the coverage or key articles that need expanding. Different projects do those tasks in different ways for different reasons. The Opera Project currently uses [[:Category:Opera stubs]] for a lot for this work. None of the problems with splitting and/or re-defining the current opera stub (or stubs) are insurmountable, but some ways of doing it are less problematic than others, and will have less scope for generating classification errors which can be time-consuming to monitor and repair. (I'm '''not''' talking about potential errors by the WPSS. I'm talking about potential errors by the editors creating future stub articles.) I've started a new section below so these issues can be discussed.[[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]])

====The way forward====
Some questions to consider:
# What is a reasonable threshold for the necessity to split the stubs further? (The OP has nearly finished a stub review. The number in [[:Category:Opera stubs]] currently stands at 561 with about 145 more articles to be reviewed.
#If it is still necessary to split, would it be enough to split opera-related topics from actual operas, keeping [[:Category:Opera singer stubs]]?
[[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 11:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:The two stubs: {{tl|opera-stub}} and {{tl|opera-singer-stub}} are now almost the same size. I ''don't'' think we will see the numbers climb back up significantly within the next six or eight months as we now have much better systems for monitoring and uprating articles. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 12:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

====Opera stub review====
Inspired by the discussion here, the Opera Project has started a stub review drive. We're going through the members of [[:Category:Opera stubs]]  and removing stub tagged articles that had since been expanded, and removing the occasional mis-tagging of articles that are not actually opera-related. So far we've done '''A-F''' and the opera stub numbers are now down to '''675'''. '''G-I''' will be done by tomorrow. It's been quite a useful exercise. [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 13:15, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:We are about half way through now and the figures is down to '''599'''. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 04:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The review has now finished. The figure is down to '''547''' -smaller than the number of opera singer stubs. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

====A final observation====
May I remind everyone involved in this conversation that Wikipedia is a resource that '''''anyone can edit'''''. For every trained opera musician like myself, there will always be someone less-informed, though possibly as well-intentioned, as myself. If the opera project would prefer that others not contribute to opera articles, perhaps a separate opera ''wiki'' would be the answer. Signing off from Disneyland... [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 23:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

:'''''Anyone can edit''''' Wikipedia - that includes vandals, copyright violators, self-publicists, poseurs, hoaxers and people like [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] who made 120-odd edits ''without'' (1) checking the facts, (2) informing the relevant project that systemic changes were underway, or (3) a whisper of an apology for disruptively creating work for other editors. ''(See the section that [[User:Grutness|Grutness]], tendentiously renamed as [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/2008/June#lengthy_irrelevant_digression|lengthy irrelevant digression]] (sic) for full details: [[Ioan Holender]], [[Giuseppe Patanè]] pages etc.)''

:[[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] has just attempted [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/2008/June#The_way_forward] once more to move this back to the actual issue of opera stubs. Unfortunately instead of a discussion we get another display of '''''hubris'''''. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 00:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Apart from one or two slips, Pegship's edits were perfectly accurate in that they made the best choice of alternate stub given that the WPSS had decided to take a large body of articles out of their existing stub category. We pointed out some of the problems with using the alternate stubs from our point of view. But that's not the real issue as far as I'm concerned. The real issue is that WPSS decided to make and '''''start implementing''''' organizational and systemic changes affecting a large body of articles without even mentioning it to the project that looks after those articles. 

From the discussions on the WPSS talk page and here, that seems to be your (collective "your") normal way of operating, and I acknowledge that none of you consider that way of operating to be a "mistake". But, really, was it so unreasonable for us to ask to be informed about the planned/proposed changes and given a chance for input '''''before''''' they got underway? This has nothing to do with ownership any more than the request in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Theatrical_people_stubs this WPSS banner] which you (collective "you") put on the stub-category pages looked after by your project. 

Now, is anyone here willing to return to actually discussing the proposal? [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 05:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

:WPWSS claims "''at least'' 340 participants", so maybe someone will turn up? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 07:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
====Numbers/2====
According to CatScan, there are 38 articles under {{cl|Opera stubs}} which could be marked with some type of opera-bio-stub, including articles from {{cl|Opera critics}}, {{cl|Opera composers}}, {{cl|Opera directors}}, {{cl|Opera managers}}, {{cl|Opera designers}}, and {{cl|Opera librettists}}. Other types which would be less viable would be {{cl|Opera houses}} (18 articles) & {{cl|Opera festivals}} (10). Although the Opera Project has done some superb housecleaning as noted above, if they are amenable to any further splits I would suggest a {{tl|opera-bio-stub}} per the numbers I have given. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 19:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
::Apart from the small numbers involved, I wonder about the logic of putting critic/composer/librettist/manager etc. biographies under {{tl|opera-bio-stub}} and all singer biographies under {{tl|opera-singer-stub}}. Wouldn't this cause confusion? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
:just a note to say that many of the active members of the OP are on vacation at the moment, including me (I'm on a hotel computer). Could we hold off on this discussion for about 10 days or at least until others from the OP return.  [[User:Voceditenore|Voceditenore]] ([[User talk:Voceditenore|talk]]) 11:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
::{{tl|Opera-struct-stub}} should be viable - many articles in the recursive {{cl|Opera houses}} are not tagged with {{tl|opera-stub}}. The numbers should be around 60 to 65 - I'm just looking through all the articles under 2kb. I'm very keen on this one. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 19:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
:::This is incorrect. I've just been through the Opera house cats - it took me more than a couple of hours - and there are only 35 opera-bannered stubs. That's all. Not enough for a useful new stub IMO. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 14:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
::::My numbers from CatScan, I'll produce a list. [[User:Severo|Severo]]<sup>''[[User talk:Severo|T]][[Special:Contributions/Severo|C]]''</sup> 15:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::Please bear in mind that just as most European opera houses are not called 'opera houses' ''per se'' ('Teatro' in Italy etc.), many of those so designated in north America (in the past) were really small general theatres that never produced opera. (Another example of why technical matters are really best left to the project concerned!) --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 02:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

====No closure?====
All the other discussions on this page have been closed. Will this be closed as well now? Or should I go ahead and close it myself? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 00:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
:According to policy, someone who has an interest in the outcome of the discussion may not close the discussion. I'd rather not be accused of any further wrongdoing. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 00:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
::Fair enough. I won't close it either. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 02:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

====Still no closure?====
Every other item on this page has been closed. Why hasn't this one? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 00:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
:What do you think the consensus is? Perhaps no one is willing to sort out the threads. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 15:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
::Let's be as neutral as possible about what has been a contentious discussion. How about this as a final text:
::<blockquote>The number of Opera-related stubs has been reduced during the course of this discussion. The Opera Project are asked to periodically review and de-stub as necessary. (Doing this at least once a year would be a good idea.) Any future proposals for new stub types need to be quantified and discussed between the WPSS and the Opera Project.</blockquote> 
::Can you endorse that? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 22:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
:::As a policy guideline it's fine, but what is the outcome of this particular discussion? No consensus, opera-struct-stub, no action required? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] [[User talk:Pegship|<small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)</small>]] 15:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Maybe "no action required now"? How about that? --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 22:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>