View source for Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 August 10

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===August 10===
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed|{{PAGENAME}}]]
<!-- Add new listings at the top of the list with the following formats for deletion and merging respectively:

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==== [[Template:R category with possibilities]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''withdrawn by nom'''. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:95%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]''''',&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;<small>06:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- Tfd top -->
* {{Tfd links|R category with possibilities|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|R with possibilities|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:R category with possibilities]] with [[Template:R with possibilities]].<br />
Note: [[WP:TFD#NOT]] does not seem to apply to [[WP:RCAT]] templates for some reason.

Does substantially the same thing but could easily be populated in much the same way that [[:Category:Template redirects with possibilities]] is populated. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[WP:WikiProject Connecticut|☖]]</sup></span> 22:35, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Keep as is.''' I created {{tl|R category with possibilities}} as a special case, because the vast majority of redirect category (rcat) templates are not to be used on soft redirects, and category redirects are soft redirects. This includes {{tl|R with possibilities}}. To show the difference, we see at {{cat|Category redirects with possibilities}} that tagged category redirects do ''not'' become '''page entries in''' the category, instead they become '''subcategories of''' the category. Since these rcats and their categories differ significantly in their usage and the way their tagged redirects appear in their categories, they should remain separate and distinct. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:95%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]''''',&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;<small>00:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)</small>
:{{re|Paine Ellsworth}} You know... I forgot how redirected categories work for a second there. {{self trout}} <br />What we could do is just make an if statement for {{tl|R with possibilities}} that just uses the merged code of {{tl|R category with possibilities}} whenever it is transcluded within category-space. Wouldn't that work just as well? <br />Clarification: The original proposal never suggested we merge [[:Category:Category redirects with possibilities]] with [[:Category:Redirects with possibilities]]. I'm just trying to improve the ease of use of [[WP:Archer]]. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[WP:WikiProject Connecticut|☖]]</sup></span> 01:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
::Okay, I had to scratch my head and look some things up, because it's been a long time since I last read the {{tl|Redirect template}} meta documentation. When I first began to work with rcats and redirect categorization, I noted in the pre-module {{tl|Redirect template}} documentation that rcats which use that template can be expected to be unstable and yield unexpected results if used on soft redirects. If I'm not mistaken, there are only two rcats that presently do not use the {{tl|Redirect template}} as a meta template, and they are {{tl|Wikidata redirect}} and {{tl|R category with possibilities}}. Those are the only two rcats that can be used on soft redirects. This proposed merge would place the {{tl|R category with possibilities}} code on the same page as the {{tl|R with possibilities}} code, and the latter rcat uses the {{tl|Redirect template}} as a meta template. Hopefully, I'm being clear that {{tl|R with possibilities}} and {{tl|R category with possibilities}} use incompatible code and are unsuitable for merging. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:95%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]''''',&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;<small>04:37, 11 August 2019 (UTC)</small>
:::{{re|Paine Ellsworth}} That makes perfect sense! Thank you!! <small>Stupid question: Can you close this TFD for me? I am not as apt in understanding TFD as I am MFD, RFD, or even AFD.</small> &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[WP:WikiProject Connecticut|☖]]</sup></span> 04:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
::::{{done}}. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:95%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]''''',&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;<small>06:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC)</small>
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:Censor]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''merge'''<!-- Tfd top --> to [[Template:Censor]]. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:41, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Censor|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Not censored|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Notcensored2|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:Censor]] with [[Template:Not censored]].<br />
Three templates with the same purpose. I suggest adding a small version to {{tl|censor}} similar to {{tl|not censored}} and then redirecting/substituting {{tl|not censored}} and {{tl|notcensored2}} --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 22:35, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' - no need for the various styles where one is sufficient. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:05, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:New message]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''relisted'''<!-- Tfd top --> on [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 August 17#Template:New message|2019 August 17]]. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:41, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{tfd links|New_message}}
* {{tfd links|New_discussion}}
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:MediaWiki talk header]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''merge'''<!-- Tfd top --> to [[Template:Interface explanation]]. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:40, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|MediaWiki talk header|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Interface explanation|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:MediaWiki talk header]] with [[Template:Interface explanation]].<br />
Two templates for the exact same purpose. Suggest redirecting {{tl|MediaWiki talk header}} to {{tl|Interface explanation}}. --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 22:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Replace''' per nom. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:10, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:How to archive]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:40, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|How to archive}}
Section explaining how to archive a page. It only has 4 transclusions and does a worse job than [[Help:Archive]] which editors would easily find by doing a simple search. It also doesn't talk about ''when'' to archive, which is essential to know if you're considering archiving a page --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 22:11, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' - unusful and pointless template. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:11, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:Copied multi]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''merge'''<!-- Tfd top --> to [[Template:Copied]]. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:39, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Copied multi|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Copied|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Copied multi/Merged-from|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Copied multi/Copied|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Copied multi/Afd-merged-from|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:Copied multi]] with [[Template:Copied]].<br />
Redundant template. It would be better adding Copied multi's functionality in the main copied template. --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 21:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Support replacement''', but to be honest, this whole setup should be replaced with Lua similar to [[Template:Old XfD multi]]. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:14, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== C&NW s-line templates ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 23:38, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|C&NW color}}
* {{Tfd links|C&NW lines}}
* {{Tfd links|C&NW stations}}
{{collapse top|heading=s-line data modules}}
* {{Tfd links|S-line/C&NW left/Sioux City-Chicago}}
* {{Tfd links|S-line/C&NW left/Twin Cities 400}}
* {{Tfd links|S-line/C&NW left/main}}
* {{Tfd links|S-line/C&NW right/Sioux City-Chicago}}
* {{Tfd links|S-line/C&NW right/Twin Cities 400}}
* {{Tfd links|S-line/C&NW right/main}}
{{collapse bottom}}
{{t1|s-line}} templates for the [[Chicago and North Western Railway]]. Superseded by [[Module:Adjacent stations/Chicago and North Western Railway]]. All transclusions replaced. There are six dependent s-line data modules which should also be deleted. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 21:16, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:14, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nominator. [[User_talk:Blaixx|<b style="color: #329604">B</b><b style="color: #FD8F42">L</b><b style="color: #0096FF">A</b><b>IXX</b>]] 10:33, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:Artemis program]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''no consensus'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 18:08, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Artemis program|module=|type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Orion program|module=|type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:Artemis program]] with [[Template:Orion program]].<br />
Since the two templates share mostly the same list of wikilinks, I think it'd be ideal to have them more efficiently listed in the one navbox, as displayed below!

{{Navbox
| name         = :Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 August 10
| title        = [[Artemis program|Artemis]] and [[Orion program]]s
| state        = {{{state<includeonly>|autocollapse</includeonly>}}}
| bodyclass    = hlist
| image        = [[File:Artemis program (solid contrast without wordmark).svg|frameless|upright=0.35|alt=Emblem of the Artemis program]][[File:Orion Triangle Patch.svg|frameless|upright=0.30|alt=Emblem of the Orion program]]

| group1       = Missions
| list1        = {{navbox|child
  | groupwidth = 8em
  | group1     = [[Proposed SLS and Orion missions#Artemis program|''Orion'' missions]]
  | list1      =
* [[Artemis 1]]
* [[Artemis 2]]
* [[Artemis 3]]
  | group2     = ''Orion'' tests
  | list2      =
* [[Exploration Flight Test-1]]
* [[Ascent Abort-2]]
  | group3     = [[Commercial Lunar Payload Services|CLPS missions]]
  | list3      =
* ''[[Nova-C|Nova-C]]''
* [[Astrobotic Technology#Mission One|''Pergerine'' Mission One]]
  }}

| group2       = Components
| list2        = {{navbox|child
  | groupwidth = 8em
  | group1     = Flight hardware
  | list1      = 
* [[Atlas V]]
* [[Delta IV Heavy]]
* [[Falcon 9 Block 5]]
* [[Lunar Orbital Platform – Gateway]]
* [[Orion (spacecraft)|''Orion'' spacecraft]]
** [[Orion abort modes|abort modes]]
** [[Orion Lite|''Orion'' Lite]]
** [[Orion service module|Service module]]
* [[Space Launch System]]
  | group2     = Facilities
  | list2      = 
* [[Cape Canaveral Air Force Station]]
** [[Cape Canaveral Air Force Station Space Launch Complex 37|SLC-37]]
** [[Spaceport Florida Launch Complex 46|SLC-46]]
* [[Kennedy Space Center]]
** [[Kennedy Space Center Launch Complex 39|LC-39]]
  }}
}}

– <span style="color:#124385;">PhilipTerryGraham</span> ([[User talk:PhilipTerryGraham|talk]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Articles|articles]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Reviews|reviews]]) 22:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

*'''Support''' They're very closley interlinked and I believe no or almost no pages should link to only one of them. Very nice seeing someone providing a merged template! --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 22:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' If there's a merger, it should be the other way around. Just as the [[Commercial Lunar Payload Services|CLPS]] program can be considered a subset of the [[Artemis program]], [[Orion (spacecraft)|Orion]] is a subset of it as well. - [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 00:44, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
*:My impression was that it would be a new template named Artemis and Orion programs which is the title I would prefer. --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 00:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
*::My counterpoint is that we don't call it the "Artemis, Orion, CLPS, and SLS programs" template. They're all parts of Artemis, but they don't need top billing. - [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 00:56, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
::::{{Reply to|Jadebenn}} Do you have a source to prove the Orion program is a sub-program of Artemis? NASA has [https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-announces-call-for-next-phase-of-commercial-lunar-payload-services/ explicitly stated that CLPS is part of Artemis], though I am unaware of times when they've said the same for the Orion program. – <span style="color:#124385;">PhilipTerryGraham</span> ([[User talk:PhilipTerryGraham|talk]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Articles|articles]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Reviews|reviews]]) 13:08, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::{{Reply to|PhilipTerryGraham}} I said "parts of Artemis", not "sub-programs of Artemis." I mean that in the same way that the SLS is part of Artemis, but it's managed separately.- [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 21:09, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::{{Reply to|Jadebenn}} I may need clarification on what you mean by "{{xt|part of Artemis}}", if not a subset, sub-program, sub-project, ect.? – <span style="color:#124385;">PhilipTerryGraham</span> ([[User talk:PhilipTerryGraham|talk]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Articles|articles]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Reviews|reviews]]) 21:48, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::{{Reply to|PhilipTerryGraham}} Like I said, I mean it in the same way that SLS is a part of Artemis. It's a component. - [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 22:09, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
::{{Outdent|5}}
::{{Reply to|Jadebenn}} I apologise Jade, but I'm really struggling to understand how "{{xt|component}}" is not just another synonym... – <span style="color:#124385;">PhilipTerryGraham</span> ([[User talk:PhilipTerryGraham|talk]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Articles|articles]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Reviews|reviews]]) 22:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
:::This template would really cover 3 programs: Orion, Artemis and CLPS. As CLPS is officially part of Artemis I have no problem leaving that out of the title, while Orion is not and therefore should be in the title. Just my 3 cents --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 22:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
::::Right, but the fact that they're not the same program is, if anything, an even stronger reason to keep the templates seperate. - [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 22:44, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - {{Reply to|PhilipTerryGraham}} I have taken the liberty of going through the relevant pages and changing them to demonstrate what I believe the appropriate use of these two templates are. I do not mean for this to be seen as "going behind your back," but rather, a rectification of a miscategorization of missions. As you can see, with these changes, there's not a whole lot of overlap. - [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 07:12, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

* '''Oppose''': ''Orion'' program is a set of missions that uses at least one [[Orion (spacecraft)|''Orion'' spacecraft]]. The Artemis 7 does not carry ''Orion'' and is NOT part of the ''Orion'' program. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] {{frac|[[User talk:Soumya-8974|T]]|[[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|S]]}} 07:40, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
:: {{Reply to|Jadebenn|Soumya-8974|Trialpears}} I think we’ve gone ''incredibly'' off track here. The point of this merger is to have what will essentially be the same set of wikilinks in the one navbox. It makes no sense to have two seperate navboxes for what will mostly be the same list of articles. ''Nobody'' here is proposing to merge the two programs or present the programs as a subset of the other. We’re only trying to have the same set of wikilinks presented more efficiently through one navbox instead of two. Please, please, please understand this. – <span style="color:#124385;">PhilipTerryGraham</span> ([[User talk:PhilipTerryGraham|talk]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Articles|articles]]&nbsp;<b>&middot;</b>&#32;[[User:PhilipTerryGraham/Reviews|reviews]]) 09:08, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

::: I think it is stable to have the same set of wikilinks presented more efficiently through one navbox instead of two. However, what about 2033, when NASA will be ready to send people on the Mars!? It is NOT an objective of the Artemis program. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] {{frac|[[User talk:Soumya-8974|T]]|[[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|S]]}} 14:02, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

:::But that's the thing: when used properly (IMO), there's not actually that much overlap. - [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 19:35, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

*'''Merge''' <strike>'''Opposed''' They are different programs. What is next, merge SLS rocket, CLPS, Artemis, Gateway, and The Moon?</strike> [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 18:12, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Support, but''' Orion is now a component of the Artemis program, it does not need its own title and logo in the combined navbox. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 22:40, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - '''1)''' There is no such thing as "Orion missions" as indicated in the template. It redirects to Artemis missions. It only adds confusion. Orion is a supporting hardware used for Artemis missions:  Artemis 1 through 8; absolutely nobody refers to the missions as Orion 1 through Orion 8 missions. Do not merge! Especially not under such format and redirects. 80% of the Orion template is about how they developed the capsule and its tests; how is that different from the development of the SLS, which is not proposed to be merged. A single link to Orion in the Artemis template suffices.  '''2)''' Artemis 7 mission will not use Orion, what then? Make another section titled "Orion Missions without Orion"?  Orion is not a sequence of missions, just hardware! [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 23:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
:: I agree with you. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] {{frac|[[User talk:Soumya-8974|T]]|[[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|S]]}} 06:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
::{{re|Rowan Forest}} I believe SLS should simply be considered part of the Artemis program. Note that the SLS article is not in the NASA navbox: it's folded under Artemis; nor is Saturn V (under Apollo program). There is apparently no navbox dedicated to the SLS, nor do we need one. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 08:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
:::For the record, I was not lobbying to also include multiple pages related to the development of the SLS into this template; On the contrary, I was trying to make a comparison of what should and should not be in the template. I fully support a section in the template listing the hardware (Orion, service module, Gateway, SLS, etc.) but EXCLUDING the links to all the pages detailing their development and tests (e.g their History.) I admit that including/excluding Orion development pages in the Hardware section is not critical or wrong, but that space rather be used to list the multiple assets to be deployed by the CLPS program supporting Artemis, not the history on how each asset came to be. In other words, each asset developmental history is beyond the scope of this template. There will be about 37 launches before Artemis 3 is launched, and dozens more if the program gets funded through Artemis mission #8. Do we want to dilute the entries in the template with pages on how each asset was developed?   [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 13:40, 11 August 2019 (UTC) 
::::{{re|Rowan Forest}} I hear you, but we're only talking about 3–4 articles here. No big deal, not enough to justify a separate navbox just for Orion. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 17:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|JFG}} In your "Updated proposal" how about changing "Test flights" for "Orion development", where we add those 2 test flights plus "abort modes" and Orion Lite. I think keeping all the Orion links together in one row/section will work best in the long term when we will have a lot more hardware and spacecraft to list. [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 18:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
::::::Well, wouldn't ''that'' put too much emphasis on Orion development? I'd rather ditch the ''[[Orion Lite]]'' link which refers to an abandoned concept. That being said, I believe this forum should first decide on merging the templates, and then we can tweak the outcome within the normal editing process. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 21:09, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:::::::If I am the only opposition, then I concede to the merge. Merge and create one row for Orion under whatever name, instead of spreading all its related pages across the template. As you said, the format can be refined after the merge. Cheers, [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 21:46, 12 August 2019 (UTC)   

<s>'''Move "Orion program" to "Orion spacecraft"''' —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] ([[Special:Contributions/User:Soumya-8974|contributions]] • [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|subpages]]) 07:39, 10 August 2019 (UTC)</s>
<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />
<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 20:50, 10 August 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div>
:The "Orion program" exists and it is developing the Orion spacecraft. [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 18:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)<!-- Please add new comments below this line -->

; Updated proposal
Noting that there is no article called "{{-r|Orion program}}" (it redirects to [[Orion (spacecraft)]]), that reinforces the position that Orion-related articles should be entirely folded into the Artemis navbox, which should simply be titled "Artemis program". Suggesting also to distinguish launchers from spacecraft, and flatten the hierarchy --> it would look like this:
{{Navbox
| name         = Artemis program
| title        = [[Artemis program]]
| state        = {{{state<includeonly>|autocollapse</includeonly>}}}
| bodyclass    = hlist
| image        = [[File:Artemis program (solid contrast without wordmark).svg|frameless|upright=0.35|alt=Emblem of the Artemis program]]

| group1       = [[List of Artemis missions|Missions]]
| list1        = 
* [[Artemis 1]]
* [[Artemis 2]]
* [[Artemis 3]]
* [[Artemis program#Proposed|Proposed missions 4–8]]
* [[Commercial Lunar Payload Services]]

| group2     = Test flights
| list2      =
* [[Exploration Flight Test-1]]
* [[Ascent Abort-2]]

| group3     = Launchers
| list3      = 
* [[Atlas V]]
* [[Delta IV Heavy]]
* [[Falcon 9 Block 5]]
* [[Space Launch System]]

| group4     = Spacecraft
| list4      = 
* [[Lunar Orbital Platform – Gateway]]
* ''[[Orion (spacecraft)|Orion]]''
** [[Orion service module|service module]]
** [[Orion abort modes|abort modes]]
** [[Orion Lite|''Orion'' Lite]]
* ''[[Nova-C]]''
* ''[[Peregrine (spacecraft)|Peregrine]]''

| group5     = Ground facilities
| list5      = 
* [[Cape Canaveral Air Force Station]]
** [[SLC-37]]
** [[SLC-46]]
* [[Kennedy Space Center]]
** [[LC-39B]]
}} <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JFG|JFG]] ([[User talk:JFG#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JFG|contribs]]) </small>

:That is an improvement, except for the "Test flights" section:  My main reason for '''no merge''' is because it keeps an undue weight on the history on one particular component of many (albeit an important one). All the links/pages on the Orion tests, developmental versions (abort modes, Orion Lite), and such history of their development are unnecessary in the wider picture of the history of the multiple assets that are going to be deployed to support the Artemis program.  Another problem with having a "Test flights" section, is that Artemis 1 and Artemis 2 missions are test flights too.
:For these reasons I still think that the Orion development is best presented in its own nice Orion program template, and we should only list a single link to the Orion capsule in this template. But I don't want to be pushy and I will step back and see if there is a consensus developing. [[User:Rowan Forest|Rowan Forest]] ([[User talk:Rowan Forest|talk]]) 14:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
::I wouldn't call Artemis 2 a test flight, as it will carry astronauts. Artemis 1, as the first flight of the SLS, could indeed move into the "Test flights" section. Just a couple more articles about Orion don't seem overkill in the merged template. A lot more stuff will be added over time, for example the various approved commercial landers, the components of the gateway, commercial cargo flights, etc. We can possibly create new sub-sections when there are too many articles in the same one. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 21:06, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''merge''', seems reasonable. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 16:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Let me see if I can merge two templates into one. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] ([[Special:Contributions/User:Soumya-8974|contributions]] • [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|subpages]]) 16:20, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

: What about this (although not really a merge)?
{{User:Soumya-8974/Artemis program|state=expand}}
: —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] ([[Special:Contributions/User:Soumya-8974|contributions]] • [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|subpages]]) 16:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
::That's another way to present it, although I prefer my compact version above. I like the additions of Houston and White Sands; probably the [[Deep Space Network]] will soon play a role as well. Conversely, I don't think we should link the rocket engines and individual rocket stages that will be used. But anyway, this forum should first decide to merge the templates, and then we can update the outcome by the normal editing and discussion process. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 22:57, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
::: I made this draft based on {{Tl|Apollo program}}, {{Tl|Space Shuttle}}, and the original {{Tl|Artemis program}}. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] ([[Special:Contributions/User:Soumya-8974|contributions]] • [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|subpages]]) 09:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

*<s>'''Delete Orion program''': Orion is just a hardware, not a series of missions. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] ([[Special:Contributions/User:Soumya-8974|contributions]] • [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|subpages]]) 09:21, 13 August 2019 (UTC)</s>

*'''Comment''': It looks like we are leaning to no consensus. —Yours sincerely, [[User:Soumya-8974|Soumyabrata]] ([[Special:Contributions/User:Soumya-8974|contributions]] • [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:Soumya-8974|subpages]]) 07:17, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': The newest proposal is an improvement, but I still believe it's unnecessary. Take a look at how many pages do ''not'' utilize both the Orion program and Artemis program templates. I'd wager that the majority only use one or the other. Thus, I'm not seeing why a merger is neccessary. I believe the design and history of the Orion spacecraft is noteworthy separately from the Artemis program, even if there is some overlap. [[User:Jadebenn|Jadebenn]] ([[User talk:Jadebenn|talk]]) 00:41, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:Infobox CHERUB mission]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 18:04, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The Recruit}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/Class A}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/Maximum Security}} 
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The Killing}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/Divine Madness}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/Man vs Beast}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The Fall}} 
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/Mad Dogs}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The General}} 
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/Brigands M.C.}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The Fall (Lauren)}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The Sleepwalker}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The General (Lauren)}}
*{{Tfd links|Infobox CHERUB mission/The Recruit (Kyle)}}

[[MOS:INUNIVERSE|INUNIVERSE]] extra infoboxes placed in addition to either [[Template:Infobox book|Infobox book]] or [[Template:Infobox character|Infobox character]]. The subpages are all hardcoded instances of the main template. I suggest deletion ''without substitution''. --[[User:Trialpears|Trialpears]] ([[User talk:Trialpears|talk]]) 09:40, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''support''' or at the very least, these should be substituted. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 14:46, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />
<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 20:49, 10 August 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div><!-- Please add new comments below this line -->
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>

==== [[Template:Argentina national baseball team roster]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 18:03, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Argentina national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Australia national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Brazil national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Canada national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Colombia national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Dominican Republic national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|IBLA Australia roster 2000-01}}
* {{Tfd links|IBLA Internationals roster 2000-01}}
* {{Tfd links|Italy National Baseball Team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Japan National Baseball Team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Mexico National Baseball Team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Nicaragua national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Panama national baseball team roster}}
* {{Tfd links|Philippines National Baseball Team roster - 2017 World Baseball Classic qualifiers}}
* {{Tfd links|Taiwan roster 2000-01}}
* {{Tfd links|United States national baseball team roster}}
I merged these single-use templates with the parent articles (with attribution) so they are no longer needed in template space.  the general consensus is that we don't need templates for to single purpose of housing content that appears only one or two times in article space. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 13:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:15, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>