View source for Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment/Archive 121

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== Amendment request: all past cases regarding ethnic feuds (December 2021) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1062110399#Amendment_request:_all_past_cases_regarding_ethnic_feuds|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:Tgeorgescu|Tgeorgescu]] '''at''' 14:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:''all past cases regarding ethnic feuds''

; Clauses to which an amendment is requested
#stipulating discretionary sanctions

; List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
*{{userlinks|Tgeorgescu}} (initiator)

; Information about amendment request
*stipulating discretionary sanctions
:*on the spot, by any admin

=== Statement by Tgeorgescu ===
Nationalist editors, who only defend one side of the story should be indeffed or topic banned on the spot. [[User:tgeorgescu|tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:tgeorgescu|talk]])  14:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

=== Statement by GoodDay ===
Oh jeez. The number of times over the years, I've come across nationalism being pushed (successfully sometimes) in areas of the project. What's being asked for in this ARCA, has the potential to open up a barrel of worms. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 04:48, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

=== Statement by Aquillion ===
As tempting as it is, this is not practical. [[WP:DE]] is already policy and [[WP:TEND]] already exists and if arbitrators had a magic wand that would make enforcing those easy and straightforward without collateral damage, they would have waved it already. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 21:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== all past cases regarding ethnic feuds: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* This goes without saying, but ''all past cases regarding ethnic feuds'' is not a valid case name. I have therefore removed the {{tl|RFARlinks}} template to avoid confusion. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 04:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

=== all past cases regarding ethnic feuds: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*I am going to ask the dumb question here, but is it not the case that all past cases involving ethnic (and/or political) disputes have within them the ability to topic-ban individuals following the appropriate warning (specifically, Discretionary Sanctions)? For what is this amendment request actually asking? [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 19:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
*:(obviously) decline per the others below, though I do think a broadaxe would be a good look along with the fez and cardigan. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 12:47, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
*yeah, this is extremely thin and I am not real interested in an idea that would make a mass change to a broad category of prior arbcom cases. I can't see anything coming out of this as it is currently framed. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 21:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
*One man's nationalist is another's patriot. I think we would have a hard time administering this standard. There are a lot of edge cases and grey areas. We already ban disruptive nationalists as is. No evidence has been presented at all, so it's hard to see that this is a problem at all. Is there perhaps a more specific dispute that you would like us to look at? As a practical matter, we generally avoid broad proscriptions, opting instead for tailored solutions. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 04:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
*'''Decline'''. Firmly. Discretionary sanctions in an area that has history of controversy (including, but not limited to areas where nationalism is present), is one thing. A blanket ability of any admin to block any editor simply by declaring them a nationalist? I am absolutely unwilling to have anything to do with that sort of authoritarianism. Let's gloss over the fact that it could be misused so easily, and consider some forms of nationalism that we all see in the western world - American patriotism, Brexit, anti-colonial nationalism, civic nationalism, sporting nationalism? Would you ban an editor for having an opinion of one of those areas, even if there is no controversy in the area? I can ramble about this further, but I think my point sits at "what CaptainEek said, but louder". [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 09:24, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
*'''Decline'''. What WTT said. ArbCom sanctions should be a [[scalpel]], not a [[broadaxe]]. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 11:54, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
*'''Decline''' --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 20:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
*Concurring with the others, thanks for the suggestion, but no action needed. The clerks can close this thread at their convenience. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 17:33, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
*Per NYB. '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 09:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
----
{{abot}}

== Clarification request: Scientology (January 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1064249361#Clarification_request:_Scientology|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:GeneralNotability|GeneralNotability]] '''at''' 22:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:{{RFARlinks|Scientology}}

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{admin|GeneralNotability}} (initiator)

''Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request''
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
* Not applicable.

=== Statement by GeneralNotability ===
I ask that ArbCom clarify whether remedy 2 of the Scientology case, "[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Church_of_Scientology_IP_addresses_blocked|Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked]]", is still in effect. As far as I can tell, it is ''de facto'' not enforced - [https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/61185 this quarry] (credit to {{u|AntiCompositeNumber}} for the query) shows that there haven't been rangeblocks mentioning Scientology since 2010, with one individual IP block in 2011 (most were applied in 2009 following the case), and most of the blocks should have expired in 2014 since they were set for five-year durations. Further, the IP ranges assigned to the Church of Scientology have changed since the case; the church owns ASNs [https://isprangefinder.toolforge.org/hint.php?type=asn&range=7914 7914] and [https://isprangefinder.toolforge.org/hint.php?type=asn&range=25823 25823] (credit to {{u|wizzito}} for identifying the relevant ASNs) and none of the ranges owned by those ASNs are currently blocked. Blocking these IPs to enforce the remedy is trivial, but I believe ArbCom should consider whether this remedy is still necessary to prevent disruption. Given that the bans expired years ago but we have not seen significant disruption, I'm inclined to say that it is not (and that our normal community processes, like [[WP:COIN|COIN]], should be enough to contain disruption if it should resume in the future), but I've got no problem with applying the blocks if the Committee believes they are necessary. I just don't like being in this in-between state of "remedy is on the books but is not being enforced".

=== Statement by Wizzito ===
Actually, looking at the query linked, the last 2 IPs blocked for Scientology reasons were 216.60.18.40 (registered to the [[Bank of Oklahoma]] in [[Tulsa, Oklahoma]]; blocked 1 month in November 2018) and 138.130.234.8 (registered to [[Telstra Internet]] in [[Sydney, Australia]]; blocked 24 hours June 2018). 92.37.9.164 (registered to A1 in [[Ljubljana, Slovenia]]) was the last block mentioning this ArbCom decision. Neither of these are registered to Scientology. [[:User:Wizzito|<span style="color: hotpink; text-decoration: inherit;">wizzito</span>]] &#124; [[:User talk:Wizzito|<span style="color: navyc; text-decoration: inherit;">say hello!</span>]] 22:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
::Here's other active-looking Scientology IPs I missed:
* 66.134.120.117, registered to [[Moxon & Kobrin]], blocked 3 times, only made 1 edit in 2005.
* 207.90.4.0/24, registered to the Flag Service Organization, no edits since 2010.
* 209.33.168.184/29, registered to Scientology in Dallas, never edited. 
* 64.206.134.192/29, registered to Scientology in New York, never edited.
* 24.96.32.80/28, registered to Scientology in Clearwater, FL, never edited. 
* 69.212.91.200/29, registered to Scientology in Plano, TX, never edited.
* 69.104.202.208/29, Scientology in San Francisco, never edited. 
* 67.127.237.40/29, also in San Fran, never edited. 
* 67.125.78.232/29, also in San Fran, never edited.
* 64.109.41.152/29, in Plano, never edited. 
* 63.199.209.128/29, also in San Fran, hasn't edited since 2009. 
* 70.90.200.8/29, in Albuquerque, never edited.
* 208.16.163.192/26, in LA, never edited. [[:User:Wizzito|<span style="color: hotpink; text-decoration: inherit;">wizzito</span>]] &#124; [[:User talk:Wizzito|<span style="color: navyc; text-decoration: inherit;">say hello!</span>]] 22:38, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
:::And it goes on and on...
* 198.95.10.0/24, registered to "sys000.scientology.org", never edited
* 198.77.154.0/23, last edit in 2019, last Scientology edit in 2016
* 12.9.238.0/23, Scientology in San Jacinto, CA, no edits since 2009
There are a bit more than this, but overall, my point is that this rule is outdated and these IPs barely edit or don't at all (at least anonymously, I'd 100 percent support a checkuser for some of these ranges) [[:User:Wizzito|<span style="color: hotpink; text-decoration: inherit;">wizzito</span>]] &#124; [[:User talk:Wizzito|<span style="color: navyc; text-decoration: inherit;">say hello!</span>]] 22:45, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
:{{u|Izno}} I feel as if that would be useless, though, my point here is that these IPs are barely active, haven't been reblocked, and some are reassigned by now. [[:User:Wizzito|<span style="color: hotpink; text-decoration: inherit;">wizzito</span>]] &#124; [[:User talk:Wizzito|<span style="color: navyc; text-decoration: inherit;">say hello!</span>]] 22:47, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
::If active disruption ever happens from any Scientology IP in the future, we can just block those as necessary and maybe per 5.1. [[:User:Wizzito|<span style="color: hotpink; text-decoration: inherit;">wizzito</span>]] &#124; [[:User talk:Wizzito|<span style="color: navyc; text-decoration: inherit;">say hello!</span>]] 22:55, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by North8000 ===
I've been an active watcher (and sometimes reverter) at the top level Scientology article. I think that there is still some more wiki-saavy efforts by them there but the old IP protection is probably not needed or relevant. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 23:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Scientology: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* Recuse, obviously. [[User:GeneralNotability|GeneralNotability]] ([[User talk:GeneralNotability|talk]]) 22:08, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Scientology: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*Absent evidence of disruption within the last year or two, I would be fine repealing remedy 2. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 22:32, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
* This one has been in the back of my head notes as a likely candidate for removal as I believe the community processes are in place to take care of problematic edits. There is also remedy 5.1 should it be needed (or perhaps that one could also be on the chopping block). I might also consider reframing the motion in terms of a ban on editing from the church rather than specifically targeting the IP addresses (which will and obviously have shifted as presented). --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 22:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*I am also open to rescinding the remedy. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 02:04, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*I am certainly open to this and Scientology DS had been one of the DS that I have suggested be rescinded in the (hopefully soon to be revived but for now stalled) DS reform. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 02:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*I'd like to hold off for more input before voting, but from what I see here I'm inclined to agree that this can go. 2009 was a ''very'' different landscape than what we have now, I think COIN and other community measures can probably handle any brushfires that may pop up in this subject area. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 04:08, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
* Per above, give it a bit of time in case anyone else has relevant information to share, but it looks like this has outlived its usefulness. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 05:37, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*Yes, it sounds like our usual procedures could handle such disruption if it recurs. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 03:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*Wikipedia of 2008 is very different to Wikipedia of 2022. I believe the community should be able to manage disruption from IPs and since there does not appear to be any recent, I'm happy for this to be removed. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 16:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*Monitoring & trailing Scientology's IPs from 12 years ago is about as constructive as bemoaning their undermining of [[Penet remailer|anon.penet.fi]] a decade before that. Time to move on. Any [[WP:COI]] can be dealt with under normal procedures. [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 10:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Motion: Scientology ===
{{ivmbox|''[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked|Remedy 2]]'' of the {{ArbCase|Scientology}} arbitration case, "Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked", is hereby rescinded. Any remaining blocks currently in force may be lifted or appealed according to the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Unblocking|unblocking]] policy.}}
:{{ACMajority|active=15|motion=yes}}
'''Enacted''' - [[User:Firefly|<span style="color:#850808;">firefly</span>]] <small>( [[User talk:Firefly|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Firefly|c]] )</small> 11:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
;Support
#Proposed, per comments above. Any disruption from IPs in this topic area can be handled without this specific measure. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 17:16, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 17:29, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 17:31, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# '''[[User talk:Maxim|<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#FF7133">Maxim</span><sub><small style="color:blue;">(talk)</small></sub></span>]]'''  17:59, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 18:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
#[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 20:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# An easy one. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 20:53, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 20:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 21:30, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 22:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 08:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 08:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 10:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
# <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 06:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
;Oppose
#
;Abstain
#
;Arbitrator comments
{{abot}}

== Clarification request: Extended confirmed restriction (January 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1064495398#Clarification_request:_Extended_confirmed_restriction|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] '''at''' 04:06, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Extended confirmed restriction]]

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|BilledMammal}} (initiator)


''Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request''
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ProcrastinatingReader&diff=prev&oldid=1063448784 Diff of notification] for ProcrastinatingReader, though as they are only quoted this may not have been required

=== Statement by BilledMammal ===
I ask that ArbCom clarify whether ECR applies to discussions on RSN regarding sources that are {{tq|related to the topic area, broadly construed}}. If it does, I ask ArbCom to also clarify {{tq|related to the topic area, broadly construed}} in this context, and whether non-ECP editors are allowed to comment regarding the reliability of the source for uses outside of topics covered by ECR.

This clarification request was prompted by two discussions at RSN, [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive 337#Jewish Chronicle|Jewish Chronicle]] and [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 355#RfC: CounterPunch|CounterPunch]]. Both had considerable involvement from socks and non-ECP editors, and during a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 361#Jewish Chronicle|close review]] of the former where the question of ECR was raised the closer stated {{tq|I don't think I discounted comments by non-ECP editors, one because I don't usually check the ECP status of participants unless struck/marked, but also because I'm not sure this RfC is covered by the ARBPIA prohibition.}}

:Apologies Beeblebrox; I wasn't clear in my request. I am requesting clarification about when the restriction applies to discussions at RSN, not how it is applied. Specifically, discussions about the general reliability of a source, typically RFC's for listing at RSP, rather than narrower discussions about the use of a source in a specific article. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 04:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
:To try and clarify further, I would broadly define this request as "Can discussions regarding project-wide topics, such as those to determine the reliability of a source for inclusion at RSP, be sufficiently {{tq|related to the topic area, broadly construed}} for ECR to apply?" If the response to this is "yes", the follow up clarification requests to this would be "How is "sufficiently" determined?" and, given the need to not disenfranchise users from participating in discussions, "How do we handle the participation of non-ECP editors in such discussions?". [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 05:26, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@{{noping|Opabinia regalis}} I don't believe there is anything unusual about those two RFC's that would result in broader than usual input. I also believe you are right about a large number of non-ECP editors being unusual; I took a look at a recent RFC with decent participation, [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 358#RfC: The Daily Wire|RfC: The Daily Wire]], and was unable to identify any !votes from non-ECP editors, though it is possible that I overlooked them. I also took a look at a recent RFC with !votes from multiple socks, [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive 335#RfC: The Canary (closed)|RfC: The Canary]], and found that of the unbanned !voters, four were non-ECP at the time of the RFC. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 07:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Beeblebrox and BDD; based your comments about how it currently functions, I believe there will be a number of RFC's at RSN that will need to be reclosed, including but not limited to The Canary and CounterPunch. However, while I understand the difficulty in providing a precise definition, I would ask that you comment on two ambiguous examples so that we have a baseline to refer to. Specifically, would ECR apply to an RFC on CNN (used somewhat frequently in ECR topics, but discussions about its reliability do not tend to involve ECR topics) and an RFC on Al Jazeera (used somewhat frequently in ECR topics, and discussions about its reliability do tend to involve ECR topics). I would assume that it doesn't apply to the former and that it does apply to the latter, but I would appreciate formal clarification on this, particularly if I am incorrect. 

Finally, I would note without raising a question that this would appear to mean that ECR also applies to RM's that have an impact both inside and outside ECR areas, such as [[Talk:Sobibór_(village)#Requested_move_30_September_2021|this]] one (ECR not applied at the time, two blocked socks, one unblocked IP). [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 05:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Selfstudier ===
As regards Arbpia related matters, I am almost sure that the intention has been to disallow unqualified editors from participating in formal discussions, see [[Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4#Clarification_request:_Palestine-Israel_articles_(July_2020)|this ARCA]], the usual procedure being to strike any comments made. [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 12:56, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

{{Re|Bobfrombrockley}} The case is not about those three RFCs specifically but the more general question of whether participation is permitted at noticeboards if the matter under discussion is related to matters where ecp applies (not just Arbpia). As several have said, "broadly construed" would be a case by case issue decided at the time of/before/after a discussion so I don't think there is any retrospective declaration here.[[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 12:12, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Zero0000 ===

Part 5B(1) of the ARBPIA General Sanctions says
<blockquote>Editors who are not eligible to be extended-confirmed may use the Talk: namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Talk pages where disruption occurs may be managed by any of the methods noted in paragraph b). '''This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc.''' (my emphasis)</blockquote>
Since RSN is a noticeboard, non-ec editors are not allowed to engage in ARBPIA-related discussion there. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 13:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, OR, the number of socks and non-ec editors taking part in those discussions was exceptional even by ARBPIA standards. It is reasonable to ask why but I have no evidence to offer. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 13:12, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Beeblebrox, you write that e-c restrictions are "not to disenfranchise users from participating in discussions", but the part of the ARBPIA General Sanctions that I put in bold are intended to keep non-ec editors out of formal discussions. They are necessary because otherwise RfCs, RMs, etc, are overrun by IPs and SPAs. It can't be controlled by anti-disruption methods, because it isn't obviously disruptive. (Imagine if 10 IPs show up and all !vote the same way. Can an uninvolved admin decide to remove them all? On what grounds?) They can still participate in informal talk-page discussion. These rules are a blessing for the smooth running of the ARBPIA area and I really really hope you don't consider changing them. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 13:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Shrike ===

*The only question in my opinion does Counterpunch RFC is ARBPIA discussion. I personally not 100% sure many outlets print about I/P conflict it doesn't meant that the general reliability discussion about them is I/P related [[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 14:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by ProcrastinatingReader (ECR) ===
I was notified but I'm not sure exactly what the question is here. If the issue is my statement during review of the Jewish Chronicle RfC ({{tq|I don't think I discounted comments by non-ECP editors, one because I don't usually check the ECP status of participants unless struck/marked, but also because I'm not sure this RfC is covered by the ARBPIA prohibition.}}), my issue was not whether ECR can apply to RSN discussions in the abstract (I understand that it can), the issue is whether it applies to the RfC in question. Rarely do RfCs say "is X source reliable for articles in Y topic area". The Jewish Chronicle one was marked asking {{tq|with regards to Left-wing organisations and individuals and Muslims and Islam}}, although the consensus I found was for the {{tq|British left, Muslims, Islam and Palestine/Palestinians}}. Some editors commented on the reliability more generally, and not just limited to these areas. So are non-EC editors prohibited from commenting here? If so, who makes that call? I don't know if it's appropriate for a non-admin closer to unilaterally decide whether an administrative ruling applies in order to disenfranchise certain editors in these circumstances. I will note that there was severe sockpuppet disruption in that RfC (6 sockpuppets), but all were above EC. [[User:ProcrastinatingReader|ProcrastinatingReader]] ([[User talk:ProcrastinatingReader|talk]]) 20:23, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by OID ===
:To respond to Kevin's comment specifically. The issue (in light of the Daily Mail RFC) is that many of the 'Is X source reliable' discussions now do not follow the instructions at the top of RSN - that a source has to be evaluated in context as to the article its being used on and what information is being referenced. The Daily Mail RFC was clear cut in that when you do this with the modern mail, it almost always fails the reliability tests, and when it doesnt overtly do so, you cant trust it anyway due to its documented history of making things up. The intent was to shorten the time spent *constantly* having to review a source that you knew was 9 times out of 10 be crap because someone had used it and been reverted. And when it wasnt, you had a host of better sources available anyway.
:Functionally now what happens is you have broad general reliability discussions about sources, which dont look at the individual uses, but in actuality are specifically being used in a narrow topic area (most commonly right-wing/conservative sources for American Politics or Israel/Palestine) to push a certain viewpoint. The goal of the discussion is to blanket allow/disallow a source based on ideological point of view rather than an objective "is this source reliable for the information to be included in the article". Why this is problematic from an RSN point of view, is that ECP-prohibited editors from the IP area can easily skew a discussion on sourcing when it is a general review rather than a close look at what the sources are being used for, because you can argue the broad review of a newspaper isnt covered by broadly construed, but you cant do so when the topic is specifically about IP. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 11:40, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by BobFromBrockley ===
I participated in the CounterPunch, Canary and Jewish Chronicle RfCs. If I understand the discussion here correctly, the argument is that because these discussions fall within the ARBPIA area, only extended confirmed editors should participate. My strong view is that these three RfCs extended far beyond the ARBPIA area. In relation to CounterPunch, the discussion was sparked by the use of a CounterPunch article (which was written by a non-expert and included several factual errors) as a source for facts about international law in the article [[Alex Saab]], which has absolutely nothing to do with Palestine/Israel. While some of the currently contentious uses of it broadly relate to Palestine/Israel (e.g. [[Sara Roy]], [[Alan Dershowitz]]) most of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=insource%3A%22counterpunch.org%22&ns0=1&ns1=1 its uses on Wikipedia] are totally unrelated, and the examples used to argue for unreliability/deprecation in the RfC related to vaccinations, 9/11, Xinjiang, the Holodomor, Holocaust denial, etc. Similarly, in The Canary discussion (there were actually several discussions in a row, all with overwhelming consensus against reliability), examples of unreliable reporting raised related to the NHS, Syria, RussiaGate, harassment of journalists in Nicaragua and many other issues. The Jewish Chronicle discussion was framed as "Left-wing organisations and individuals and Muslims and Islam", none of which are Israel/Palestine. The examples of unreliability raised related to the British Labour Party and not to the Middle East. In conclusion, I see no reason to retrospectively declare these discussions under the ARBPIA category. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 10:55, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Nableezy ===
Beyond the problem with explaining how brand new accounts or ones that mysteriously only show up to vote on occasion find a discussion on RSN, the fact that it is I/P users '''heavily''' socking in these discussions should inform one as to why these should be covered. In the discussions Bob brings up, Icewhiz (5 IW socks in CP, 4 in the JC discussion) and NoCal100 (1 sock each) socks formed a huge chunk of the votes in favor of deprecation for CP ( or maintaining reliability for the Jewish Chronicle. Why might that be? Beyond the obvious seeking to impact a restricted topic area. And in these discussions, where a handful of users can have a huge impact, see for example the 15 users in good standing, including the non-EC users who should be discounted, being used to expunge a source across the encyclopedia, we need to have some level of protection against disruption. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 17:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)</small>

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Extended confirmed restriction: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
*

=== Extended confirmed restriction: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*I think point C of the motion addresses this: "''C. On any page where the restriction is not enforced through extended confirmed protection, this restriction may be enforced by other methods, including page protection, reverts, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters.''" It isn't possible to protect one section of a page, and applying ECP to a busy noticeboard is not desirable. but admins are free to use other means to curb disruption as needed. More broadly, ECP is generally intended to stop disruption in articles, not to disenfranchise users from participating in discussions. That's what all those other options are for, disruption to discussions can and should be dealt with on a more case-by-case basis.  [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 04:18, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
**I've taken another look here, I am not at all sure why I did not participate in the discussion of that motion or vote on it, but it does appear to say that non-EC users can be excluded from such discussions. I do not agree with that and would've voted against it had  I been aware it did this, but I missed it and that is, as of right now, the rule in areas where the committee has imposed ECP. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 03:50, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
* I know this doesn't quite answer the question, but commenting at RSN and making judgments about the Wikipedia-idiosyncratic definition of "reliability" are pretty insidery things to be doing. The occasional legit non-ECP editor could certainly end up there and give useful input, but a lot of non-ECP people in the same discussion at the same time seems unusual. Am I wrong about that? Other than the topic, is there anything about those two discussions that would have attracted broader than usual input?  Since this hasn't come up before AFAIK, I'm not sure if this is a general issue, or if these two threads are outliers in some way. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 06:33, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
**Thanks to everyone who responded to my question - good to know this isn't the usual state of things. I think the first part of the question has been adequately covered; as for the second, I don't know that we can provide much general insight beyond what WTT and Kevin say below. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 06:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
*Yes to the basic question (as in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&type=revision&diff=1063458782&oldid=1063457741 this diff]). I don't think we can answer the follow-up question, any more than we can precisely say what "broadly construed" means. I agree with Zero0000 that the quoted sanction does serve to disenfranchise non-EC editors, and that is indeed the point. Not a very nice way of putting it, I suppose, but it's true. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 03:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
**[[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]], yes, I think that's a reasonable assumption, given that ''Al Jazeera''{{'}}s entry at [[WP:RSP]] mentions potential Arab–Israeli conflict bias, with no such caveat for CNN. Context will matter, though. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 20:01, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*Responding to "Can discussions regarding project-wide topics, such as those to determine the reliability of a source for inclusion at RSP, be sufficiently related to the topic area, broadly construed for ECR to apply?", yes - As OR states, this is an "insider" area, where you would expect people to be EC before finding it and being able to participate helpfully. I cannot prescriptively give a definition of "broadly construed" beyond "if it is related broadly in the opinion of a reasonable uninvolved individual". [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 16:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*I agree with OR and WTT both in terms of how we are attempting to mitigate disruption (which most definitely continues) and how to interpret broadly construed. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 17:31, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*The first question is easy to answer: If an RSN discussion is "related, broadly construed", to the topic area, then the ECR applies. The harder question is what counts as "related, broadly construed". It is of course a case-by-case decision, but I would suggest the following general rule: an RSN discussion is "related, broadly construed", if the RSN discussion itself substantially discusses to the ECR topic, or if the source typically reports information within the topic area. But a source that covers many things including some things that are related to an ECR topic is not covered (unless the RSN discussion substantially relates to the ECR topic). Again, this should be determined case-by-case. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 19:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*Concur with OR, WTT, & L235. I figure the sensible interpretation is straightforwardly implied by the existing wording, so in my opinion it wouldn't need to be changed. [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 08:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
----
{{abot}}

== Amendment request: American politics 2 (January 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1064681088#Amendment request: American politics 2|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:Atsme|Atsme]] '''at''' 01:19, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:{{RFARlinks|American politics 2}}

; Clauses to which an amendment is requested
#[[Special:Permalink/907603929#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction|You are indefinitely topic banned from Anti fascism in the United States, broadly construed.]]

; List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
*{{userlinks|Atsme}} (initiator)
*{{admin|Awilley}}

; Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Awilley&diff=1063248185&oldid=1059156800 Diff of notification] for Awilley.

; Information about amendment request
*Topic ban from Antifascism US imposed at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=prev&oldid=907431791#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction Talk:Atsme], first on July 22, 2019, amended on July 24, 2019 at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=next&oldid=907603929#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction Talk:Atsme].
** Repeal requested

=== Statement by Atsme ===
The date of Awilley's first topic ban action is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=prev&oldid=907431791#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction July 22 2019] but he modified it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=next&oldid=907603929#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction July 24, 2019] to cover US only, perhaps because I called an RfC at the only article that is clearly subject of this t-ban, and where I also [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Antifa_(United_States)&diff=907201725&oldid=907201546 received an apology] for the behavior that resulted in my stated concerns over how I was being treated. As Awilley has said in the past to other editors who reacted defensively to aggressive editors, we need to grow [[Wikipedia:Thicker skin sanction|thicker skin]]. A few of the diffs he included involved my attempt to fix the header template at [[Talk:Fascism]] because it conflicts with consensus from an RFC, and contradicts the resulting lead of [[Fascism|the article]], but that topic is not part of my t-ban. He also used diffs for my limited participation in an AfD involving a BLP which may or may not be associated with the topic of my t-ban. I have had very limited participation in that topic area as evidenced in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=943215390#Your_advice this discussion]. Please forgive me, but "backroom deals" don't sit well with me, so I chose to bring my appeal here. It is now January 1, 2022 and the topic ban has been in place approximately 2-1/2 years for a topic area where I have spent very little time over the past decade as an editor. In fact, an iota of time would be an gargantuan overstatement in comparison to my total edits. I would very much like to start the New Year with a clean slate, and hope ArbCom will agree that it has been long enough.

*Response to starship.paint - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Antifa_(United_States)&diff=907250372&oldid=907244392 this diff] was my response to the apology I received, and I'm hoping that my response to that apology will also serve as a demonstrative answer to your question about recommitting. I have always taken and will continue to take my commitments seriously. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 01:51, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*Kevin, I didn't intend to make time-served the primary reason for my appeal. If you are concerned about my behavior in that particular topic area after examining the diffs - can you please be more specific and <s>at least</s> provide a diff or two so I can at least see & understand what has raised your concerns to the point that you're hesitant to remove a t-ban that has been in place for 2-1/2 years? Without specifics, I'm at a loss. I was under the impression that blocks and t-bans are to be used to stop disruption, not punish editors. So please forgive me for not quite understanding what purpose you see this t-ban is serving to stop disruption at this point in time. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 02:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*Opabinia regalis, I do appreciate your question and multiple choice options, which brought to mind [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2021/Candidates/Opabinia regalis/Questions#Question from Atsme|your response]] to me a short time ago. I'm not one to "blow smoke", so I'll just say, somewhat apologetically, that I have no clue as to how much time I will devote to WP in the coming years. Over the past decade, my volunteer participation in any controversial topic area has been negligible in the grand scheme of things, but sadly, those little black marks I've inadvertently managed to accumulate over the years are indelible, quite depressing and major incentive killers that resulted in my spending less time editing in general. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia does not need you|This essay]] on my UTP serves as a reminder of how much time I want to devote, considering how much our work is appreciated. I will also add that the extent of my activity as a WP volunteer in general is contingent upon ArbCom's actions to implement much needed changes in DS/AE in an effort to remedy the problems that work against collaborative editing, and inadvertently encourage [[WP:POV creep]] which tips the scales in favor of whatever systemic bias is prevalent at the time, gives first mover advantage, and discourages NPOV and the [[User talk:Atsme#Woke|consensus building process]]. Perhaps [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mass killings under communist regimes (4th nomination)|this AfD]] will serve a useful purpose as a case study for ArbCom when deliberating over the efficacy of DS/AE. There is always room to improve AE actions, especially when determining whether or not an editor is actually being disruptive or admin prejudice is involved vs productively contributing to the consensus building process. To me, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes_(4th_nomination)&diff=1057305690&oldid=1057305420 this response] demonstrates good judgement in a highly controversial and lengthy discussion. I cast my iVote in that AfD, and was neither repeatedly questioned nor bullied which is what typically happens in controversial topic areas. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 23:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*BDD, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I was referring to the template as it existed in July 2019. The template is a muted fuchsia pink with rather large bold letters, and at the time simply stated: {{xt|"Fascism is a right wing ideology. The consensus of political scientists, historians, and other reliable sources is that Fascism is a right-wing ideology and not a left wing one. This has been discussed numerous times; please see the archives. Please do not request that "right-wing" be changed to "left-wing"; your request will be denied."}} <u>The current template's</u> bold title catches one's eye and contradicts <u>what both the first sentence and article lead state.</u> That TP will never be stable because of that template, but I've long since learned [[WP:IDGAF]]. At least the first sentence has been <s>corrected</s> <u>modified somewhat</u> - perhaps a compromise was reached. Regardless, I have long since adopted the following philosophy: [[WP:IDGAF]]. [[File:SMirC-chuckle.svg|x20px|^_^]] [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 03:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC) <sup>see underlined text 07:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)</sup>
*Black Kite - I will gladly respond to any specific concerns you may have about my behavior if you would be so kind as to point out the violations you believe I'm guilty of committing, and provide supporting diffs. So far, none of the diffs provided against me support the claims of backsliding, whatever "backsliding" means. It is clearly a broad and subjective term which requires specifics for clarity. I beg of you to please, please not use that generality to base your decision because there is no policy or guideline that defines backsliding as an actionable offense. It doesn't even represent a good summary close of my original appeal, which was granted and after all these years should have no bearing on the current t-ban that Awilley himself described as {{xt|an extremely small and relatively ugly part of the encyclopedia.}} Bishonen used stale diffs that don't support her claims. One diff points to a comment I made on my UTP to the "regular user" who wrongfully accused me of a BLP vio, obviously in retaliation for [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1041#Proposal_for_6_mos._t-ban this incident]. Black Kite, you also participated in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1041#POV_Editing_at_The_Daily_Stormer that ANI case]; Ivanvector closed it with an excellent summary. With all claims considered, how does [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=974910901&oldid=974910822 this diff] not demonstrate favoritism for the "regular user" and prejudice against me? This isn't the first time, either. As for the Fox News RfC allegation - the multiple admins who closed that RfC stated: {{xt|There was a very large amount of what we considered to be bludgeoning from certain participants of this RFC. While there is no formal limit to the maximum number of times one may comment on a given discussion, replying with the same argument(s) to multiple participants holding an opposite viewpoint becomes extremely tedious (bordering on tendentious).}} None of the participant'''s''' were charged with a violation. I even contacted {{u|Rosguill}} via private email because I was very concerned, and I absolutely do care so please don't believe the misrepresentations about me. If prejudiced admins had been involved in that Fox RfC, they probably would have seen it as tendentious editing, and the heads of editors with whom they disagreed would have rolled. I was advised that the reference included all editors who made over 10 comments in the discussion, which did include me among several others, which again brings to mind [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mass killings under communist regimes (4th nomination)|this AfD]], and further begs the question about the merits of Bishonen's warning on my UTP in 2020, and her use of those old diffs to poison the well against me now. It makes me very sad. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 07:11, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*With the utmost respect for this forum, the scope of my appeal, and the arbitrators who are taking/have taken the time to consider it, I will not respond to the unfounded allegations and prejudiced opinions that reach beyond the scope of this appeal. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 15:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*Izno - "total disengagement" was not intentional - it was RL getting in the way, but I appreciate your enthusiasm. Ironically, I get t-banned for claims that I post too much, and reprimanded for not posting enough. [[File:SMirC-crazy.svg|x20px|%Þ]] Please allow me a bit more time to present my final thoughts. When I'm pressed for time, my posts are too long. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 00:44, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
;Final thoughts
To satisfy Awilley's requirement, in the future I will try to avoid accusing people of gaslighting. Having said that, I hope we will see the removal of [[WP:GASLIGHTING]] from our PAGs in order to avoid future misunderstandings per {{xt|#4. Employing gaslighting tactics – such as history re-writing, reality denial, misdirection, baseless contradiction, projection of one's own foibles onto others, repetition, or off-topic rambling – to destabilize a discussion by sowing doubt and discord.
<small>Examples: denying that you posted what you did, suggesting someone agreed to something they did not, pretending your question has not already been answered, misrepresenting what a policy actually says or means, prevaricating about the obvious meaning of a claim, or refusing to concede when your position has been disproved or rejected by consensus.</small>}} As far as controversial topics go, I will take BDD's advice to heart and make IDGAF my friend. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 18:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Awilley ===
Sorry, traveling. I've always been willing to lift this ban on the condition that Atsme makes some kind of commitment to remedy the problem that led to this (and the previous) ban. I haven't seen that yet. The last appeal ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Awilley#June_2021_Request June 2021]) was kind of the opposite. Summarizing: "Commit to what? There is no problem. Others were the problem. You're the problem.") I'd be happy to see this ban lifted if Atsme simply said she'd try harder to follow the 2019 promise referenced below by StarshipPaint. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 02:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Adding: for anyone unfamiliar with the history, this started with my closure of [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive247#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Atsme this appeal]], which rescinded Atsme's topic ban for the whole of American Politics. Based on comments in the admin section, my close included a warning that "backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions". Less than 4 months later I saw these edits [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&diff=907326628&oldid=907324070] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Willem_van_Spronsen&diff=907383559&oldid=907377971] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Antifa_(United_States)&diff=907187883&oldid=907187624] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Antifa_(United_States)&diff=907201002&oldid=907200968] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Antifa_(United_States)&diff=907136036&oldid=907120954] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Antifa_(United_States)&diff=907199305&oldid=907198011] accusing 4 different editors of, among other things, "gaslighting" and POV pushing. That seemed a clear case of backsliding, but instead of restoring the full AP2 topic ban, I imposed a very narrow ban for Anti-Fascism (ANTIFA). 

I'll avoid any further defense of the legitimacy of the ban. I think that was settled in previous appeals. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=929175437#Amendment_request:_American_politics_2 Nov 2019] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive275#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Atsme Nov 2020] 

{{re|North8000}} I'm not insisting on a full re-commitment to the 2019 promises specifically. I just want to see ''some kind of commitment'' to do better. I'd settle for something as simple as "In the future I'll try to avoid accusing people of gaslighting." This is how I approach all appeals. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 18:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
:OK, I'll settle for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=1064313995&oldid=1064304075 that]. Let's get rid of the topic ban. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 23:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by starship.paint ===

{{re|Atsme}} will you recommit to your 2019 position? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive247#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Atsme] {{tq|if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays [[WP:WORLDSEND]], [[WP:DGAF]], and [[WP:LETITGO]] and have taken them to heart.}} '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 08:34, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

{{re|Atsme}} I'll understand that as a 'yes', <s>so I '''support''' lifting the sanctions</s>, as Atsme has recommitted her intentions. From this, either all is well, or this is [[WP:ROPE]]. Anyway, I just saw that Awilley hasn't edited at all in December, so we might not hear from him here soon. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:29, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

:Support withdrawn (am neutral) for now, it seems that the benefit of the doubt given may have been misplaced given the later {{tq|whatever "backsliding" means}} overall statement. So, the history, topic banned for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=848026142&oldid=848025368] {{tq|filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward}} (2018), effectively commits not to bludgeon (2019, see above), but did bludgeon in the 2020 Fox News RfC (this is a clear example from the link to the discussion itself even if diffs are not provided), that's backsliding. {{u|Atsme}} - defensiveness over that RfC, or defensiveness over Bishonen's statements, are not helpful. What would be more helpful to your case - 1) acknowledge that the 2020 Fox News RfC bludgeoning was problematic '''in the context of''' your 2018 topic ban and your 2019 commitment, and 2) clearly re-commit (like 2019) to not repeating this behaviour (of 2020). '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 14:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by CaptainEek ===
Speaking as an editor and not an Arb, since I have a fairly strong personal opinion on the matter and am the main author on [[Anti-fascism]]. As a practical point, this sanction is no longer needed. Its been over two years. Anti-fascism in the US is no longer the spicy hot-button issue it was a few years back. Atsme notes that she is not usually involved in these sort of topics. Even at the time she made a well worded appeal. I understand there is some hesitance to remove a ban because the editor wants a clean slate. But I think we should be more aware of the impacts of sanctions. We may have high ideals about turning the other cheek and being magnanimous, but our editors are still just people. Having inapplicable or unjust sanctions applying to them years later decreases editor morale and editor retention. Lift Atsme's ban. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 19:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Bishonen ===
I won't oppose or support Atsme's article ban appeal. But since at least one arb ({{u|Primefac}}) has shown interest in the larger question of her 2019 new year's promises to do better in the area of American politics, I'll offer a brief history of the fate of these promises, and also point to her apparent unwillingness to explicitly reaffirm them here. These were [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive247&action=edit&section=35 some very strong and sincere-sounding promises which led to her indefinite AP2 topic ban being lifted in March 2019] and which are partly quoted by {{u|Starship.paint}} above. Atsme's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=1063432786&oldid=1063429111 reply] to Starship.paint's question about recommitting to the promises seems quite evasive. It consists only of a diff from July 2019 meant as a "demonstrative answer" (?), and the statement that {{tq|I have always taken and will continue to take my commitments seriously.}} The diff does not mention those promises or their content. It seems irrelevant to Starship.paint's question, and I'm quite surprised Starship.paint 'understands it as a yes'. I wonder if Primefac and the other arbs understand it so too. 

Atsme has not always taken those commitments seriously. By August 2020, she had comprehensively backslid (in my opinion) from them, and when this was pointed out by a regular user,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=prev&oldid=974907756] she showed no interest in reaffirming the commitments or even acknowledging them.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=974910901&oldid=974910822] Indeed, she aggressively blew off the regular user with {{tq|"I don't need you dancing atop a 2 year action [this refers to her t-ban from American politics] that was questionable from the get-go. Stop dredging up the past"}} and impugned their motives. The way she absconded from her promises and resented being reminded of them alarmed me, and I posted a warning in my admin role,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&diff=next&oldid=974985130] reminding her that they were what got her topic ban lifted and giving specifics about current problems that I perceived. A striking recent example then was the way she had bludgeoned the Fox News RFC in the summer of 2020, posting some 75 times in it — quite the contrast to the 2019 undertaking {{tq|"If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas"}}. I urged her to re-read her old appeal and start living up to her old promises, or I would consider reinstating the AP2 topic ban. She made no reply. Perhaps the arbs want to consider whether they'd like a clearer reply from Atsme to the question above about reaffirming her promises. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC).
*I'll just add a link to the mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_303#RfC%3A_Fox_News Fox News RfC] in 2020, in case people want to see Atsme's input for themselves. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 17:42, 3 January 2022 (UTC).
*Rather than clarifying whether she stands by the promises that got her un-topic-banned from American politics, Atsme is now saying in her response to Black Kite and me (formally only to Black Kite) that "there is no policy or guideline that defines backsliding as an actionable offense". I have a couple of comments on that: ignoring old promises once they have served their purpose is dishonest, not indeed per any 'policies or guidelines', but per [[WP:COMMONSENSE]]. "'''Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy?''' It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy." (Bolding in the original explanatory supplement to [[WP:IAR]].) And secondly: in the summary close of Atsme's t-ban appeal, she was specifically warned against backsliding, both on on the WP:AE page[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=885621487] and in the AE log.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2019&diff=prev&oldid=885622130] I suppose it's a pity that she didn't then ask 'Whatever does backsliding mean?', as she's doing now. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC).
*The motion is now passing, but I'll just post a remark all the same, though with very little hope of getting a response from any arb. Two editors — Wbm1058 and Nableezy — have pointed out that the second sentence of the motion means nothing, since per the discretionary sanctions for post-1992 American politics, an uninvolved administrator who feels that a user is not able to edit productively may ''always'' impose a topic ban, at their own discretion. And MastCell has also objected that the second sentence is meaningless and redundant. No arb has responded; they support the motion without seemingly caring that half of it is meaningless. Or, do they support it because they see an esoteric meaning in the second sentence, which the three experienced users I mentioned cannot divine, and they, the arbs, don't care to explain? Those seem to be the alternatives. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:00, 8 January 2022 (UTC).

=== Statement by Springee ===
I don't think my opinion will matter much but I would support the appeal.  This isn't an appeal to lift a general politics tban, but a narrow sub-set tban.  Atsme has shown that they aren't a problem in the broader topic space which should be all the evidence we need to say that this ban is no longer needed to protect Wikipedia.  Politics, especially in the last year has been particularly divisive yet we don't have clear evidence of any backsliding.  I know Bishonen noted the concerns of another editor.  It's worth noting the editor was involved in the topic area and several topics with Atsme herself vs an uninvolved editor trying to raise a helpful concern. We are over a year later and two and a half years after the general AP ban was lifted. It seems like it's increasingly difficult to view this tban as needed to protect Wikipedia. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 18:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
:Soibangla, is the issue that Atsme has actually violated some rules you can point to or is it because she is often on the other side of debates over content you try to add to articles? A number of editors agreed that you should have been narrow topic banned here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1041#Proposal_for_6_mos._t-ban] due to concerns regarding BLP violations.  One editor proposed a complete AP tban [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1041#Proposal_for_an_indef_t-ban].  You have accused me of provocation on several occasions because I updated your DS Alerts.  It seems you respond the same way when an admin adds it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=896446818&oldid=896330692#Discretionary_sanctions_alert_concerning_BLPs,_please_read].  I updated it because in the past you have violated the NPA rules[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=929119777&oldid=928849268][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=896613838&oldid=896606773#Please_strike].  Your talk page shows an number of editors concerned about bad reverts[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&oldid=1044768409#You_reverted_an_edit_with_substantial_WP:SYNTH_with_edit_summary_of_'nah'], edit warring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=1056988356&oldid=1056979515][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=990001829&oldid=989424265], and other less than ideal editor behaviors [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=1044497257&oldid=1041007755][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=1034069621&oldid=1033984890][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=1033275637&oldid=1033274358][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Soibangla&diff=898055560&oldid=898054752#%22Enforced_BRD%22_rule_violation]. Accusations from editors aren't the same thing as proof and often the devil is in the details.  Still, quite a few editors have had issues with the way you have handled edits or editor interactions with them.  Why should it be assumed that Atsme's issues were the result of unreasonableness on her part?  [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 16:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

'''Comment''' for those who are opposing the removal, what harm are we protecting here?  The purpose of tbans etc is specifically to protect Wikipedia.  What harm is likely to come if this is removed?  I think that Bishonen's comments have given editors real concern but should they?  I see two basic concerns, the first being replies to Soibangla, the second being replies to the Fox RfC.  Above I mentioned the concerns other editors have expressed with the way Soibangla has interacted with others.  Atsme's replies to what look like battleground comments directed at Atsme look blunt but restrained.  The Fox RfC did have a lot of comments but it was a VERY long RfC [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_303#RfC:_Fox_News].  This RfC had 63 citations, ~650 signed edits and was active for a month and a half (7 June to 21 July).  I counted 67 signed comments by Atsme in that RfC.  Quite a few editors were well into the double digits.  Many of Atsme's edits were back and forth discussions rather than an editor individually challenging every editor who opposed Atsme's POV which is typically where we raise the bludgeoning concern.  They weren't a bunch of uncivil comments, most seem quite congenial even in disagreement.  Yes, 67 is a lot but when looking at the total size and But when we look at the total length and breadth of the discussion this isn't the bludgeoning the raw number makes it appear to be.  So after 2.5 years of very contentious politics this is all the evidence we have to refuse to lift a narrow topic band?  Again, are we actually protecting Wikipedia?  If people really are that concerned I think WTT's probationary period is a good compromise. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 15:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Black Kite ===
I came here to support this, but now I'd like to see an answer to Bishonen's statement. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 23:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Soibangla ===
I was highly reluctant to participate in this discussion, but Atsme's assertion that I  {{tq|wrongfully accused me of a BLP vio, obviously in retaliation for this incident}} is flatly false and is indicative of an unrelenting vendetta that Atsme is attempting to project upon me. I find Atsme incorrigible and if it were up to me Atsme would have been permanently banned from AP2 years ago. I cannot fathom why Atsme has been given so many passes for persistently bad  behavior. And I fully anticipate that I will be targeted for retribution for coming right out and saying it. Bring it. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 15:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->
=== Statement by Doug Weller === 
I'd like to hear Atsme's response to Awilley's request. Unlike starship.paint, I don't take her response as a yes, and I'd prefer something more clearcut. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 08:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


===Statement by RegentsPark===
I don't follow AP so consider this a kibitzer opinion. A request to remove a ban should be crisp and clear. It should recognize why the ban was imposed and clearly state what the editor will do to ensure that the particular behavior is not repeated. I don't see that here. starship.paint's question, for example, required a pro-forma "yes, yes, yes,..." response but, instead, we get a two year old diff that is a non-answer (especially in the light of later diffs from Bishonen). The  Opabinia regalis question also required a straightforward answer (this, this, this, or some combination of the three) but, instead, we get a long meandering response with a pointer to an essay (with a, less than encouraging, reference to "admin cabals") and an AfD, neither of which actually answer the questions. Frankly, the topic ban itself seems so limited that it hardly seems to matter whether it stays or goes but, procedurally, it would be nice to see clear statements from the requester and I'm puzzled as to why Atsme seems to not want to be direct in their responses. --[[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 13:42, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
=== Statement by North8000 ===
Support.  2 1/2 years is enough. Regarding the possible commitment in question, it is a very long post with at least a half dozen interpret-able conditions and a minefield for anybody to commit to. About the only way to fulfill the multiple possible interpretations of those half dozen commitments would be near-zero participation. A better merge would be saying zero drama in that area (with near-zero participation being the only way to safe way to fulfill all interpretations of that)for 6 months.  After that they would just have the same scrutiny that all editors have. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

{{ping|Awilley}}  Cool and sounds very reasonable.   I was just pointing out the issues of going by that particular post and why one would be hesitant to commit to it.  <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 19:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Suggest clarification. After 12 months and if all goes well, is it all over, or go back to a full ban or require another discussion/decision here? <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 22:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by MastCell ===
Atsme previously appealed this topic ban unsuccessfully at [[WP:AE]] in November 2020 ([[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive275#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Atsme|link]]). I don't see that she's mentioned or linked that appeal. One reviewing admin described it as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=987991128 "large amounts of text disclaiming any responsibility on the grounds that everything is some other users' fault"]. Little seems to have changed, despite the passage of time.

It's common for appeals to contain red flags, but this appeal consists of nothing ''but'' red flags: re-litigation of the original ban, no acknowledgement of its rationale, no convincing insight or commitment to change, no real argument beyond time-served, and a lengthy list of grievances. It's quintessential [[WP:NOTTHEM]] and bad-faith wikilawyering. I mean, she's [[WP:SOUP|soup-spitting you guys]] about the term "backsliding". Come on.

As usual, debate here focuses on the rights of the sanctioned user. Those ''affected'' by her behavior&mdash;their voices are largely silent here, their time and experience accorded basically zero value in your deliberations. You guys can pat yourselves on the back, quote the-quality-of-mercy speech and [[WP:ROPE]], and pretend that there's no cost to lifting these sorts of sanctions, because there ''is'' no cost to you, and because your empathy extends only to the sanctioned user. It's like letting a wolf loose in a henhouse and then congratulating yourselves on your kindness to animals.

As others have pointed out, Atsme's AP2 topic ban was lifted in response to vague commitments to do better, commitments which were promptly ignored and exposed as toothless. It was foolish and irresponsible to have lifted that topic ban in the absence of any insight or reason to think the underlying behavior would change. But doing the same thing again&mdash;as you seem to be considering here&mdash;would be outright administrative malpractice. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
:I agree with wbm1058 that a "provisional" clause would be meaningless and redundant. If you really think this appeal provides a reasonable assurance that the previous issues won't recur, then grant it. Otherwise don't. Don't punt this to some hypothetical uninvolved admin to re-instate the ban&mdash;and ''especially'' don't pretend that re-imposing the ban is cost-free. As I emphasized above, you're just shifting the cost.{{pb}}If you trust someone not to backslide into problematic behavior when they won't even acknowledge the meaning of the word "backsliding", then at least have the courage of your convictions and just make a decision. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 16:53, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Wbm1058 ===
The amendment is requested to {{tq|You are indefinitely topic banned from Anti fascism in the United States, broadly construed.}} I fail to see, how under even the broadest of construals, the RfC about the reliability of Fox News has anything to do with Antifa in the US. [[Template:Warning Fascism left-wing]] was the issue of concern there. The title of that template shouldn't be of much concern since that's not visible to readers. The text of that template has been stable since [[special:diff/1028550103|Jimbo Wales 14 June 2021 edit]] (I synced it with the current version of the article). There is no reason to maintain sanctions over that. This sanction seems to be (mostly) about Atsme's use of the term "gaslighting". Some background on that. {{U|MrX}}, who at the time was actively editing the [[Donald Trump]] bio, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20180622131404&limit=20&target=MrX&namespace=all&tagfilter=&start=&end=2018-06-22 created several related shortcuts] on 22 June 2018, and boldly [[special:diff/847025833|amended the Wikipedia:Gaming the system behavioral guideline]] by adding "{{tq|Employing [[gaslighting]] tactics by using misdirection, repetition, contradiction, and off-topic rambling to destabilize a discussion by sowing doubt and discord. Example: Repeatedly complaining about bias in the press or clickbait to undermine reliable sources, while ignoring requests to stay on topic.}}" with edit summary "Happy to discuss on talk if anyone disagrees with this." This was apparently in preparation for the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=848084807#Amendment_request:_American_politics_2 American politics 2 amendment request] he filed on 28 June 2018 (just 6 days later), in which he accused Atsme of {{tq|Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources ([[WP:GASLIGHTING]])}}. AWilley did not approve of this term, as he filed a [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 August 11#Wikipedia:GASLIGHTING|redirect for discussion]] stating {{tq|This seems like a non-neutral and misleading redirect. [[Gaslighting]] has a specific meaning and the target page (examples of gaming/wikilawering) doesn't include anything about gaslighting or any other form of psychological abuse.}} but there was no consensus to delete the term, and today the target says {{tq|Employing [[gaslighting]] tactics – such as history [[False attribution|re-writing]], reality [[Denialism|denial]], [[Handwave|misdirection]], baseless [[Ipse dixit|contradiction]], [[Psychological projection|projection]] of one's own foibles onto others, [[Proof by assertion|repetition]], or [[Red herring|off-topic rambling]] – to [[WP:BATTLEGROUND|destabilize]] a discussion by sowing doubt and discord.}} I'm wondering why we've sanctioned an editor for using a term for which there was no consensus to delete and which still is used on a behavioral guideline page, and if this is sanctionable, was {{U|MrX}} ever sanctioned for accusing Atsme of gaslighting? [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 23:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

:I don't follow the concept of {{tq|put a "provisional" clause on the removal, that an uninvolved administrator can return it and if none have after 12 months it is completely removed.}} Aren't uninvolved administrators always authorized to place discretionary sanctions where allowed – for ''new'' instances of sanctionable behavior, even if the sanction is identical to a previously expired or repealed sanction that was imposed for an ''old'' instance of sanctionable behavior? – without needing any enabling "clause" – and would removal of the "clause" after 12 months then have the effect of prohibiting the imposition of sanctions for ''new'' instances of sanctionable behavior? [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 16:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The primary meaning of [[backsliding]], according to Wikipedia, is a term used within Christianity to describe a process by which an individual who has converted to Christianity reverts to pre-conversion habits and/or lapses or falls into sin... the backslidden individual is in danger of eventually going to Hell if he does not repent. I don't care for the use of this term with its negative religious connotations in conversations about behavior on Wikipedia. Ideally, I'd like to see both terms "backsliding" and "gaslighting" removed from the vocabulary of behavioral discussions on Wikipedia. – [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 17:34, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by MONGO ===
I would recommend Atsme provide a direct and concise response to the arbs and Awilley and then just avoid AP articles and issues altogether. No one can fix those places, especially in this political climate. So it better to find places in the pedia that allow one to have some fun and avoid some folks with serious mental and emotional issues.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 16:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Nableezy ===
Is there anything actually added by the provisional nature of the motion below? Cant any uninvolved admin already re-impose a topic ban as a DS if they feel it required, AP2 still being a topic area covered by DS? Just seems like a distinction without a difference in lifting the ban and the way it is worded below. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 18:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)</small>

=== Statement by Valereee ===
Possibly moot, but IMO reasonable editors who are on the more-conservative side than the average editor ought to be valued for what they can offer, even if considering their pov sometimes feels frustrating, because considering their pov is necessary for arriving at NPOV. When only one or two people are arguing for something, it can look like disruption and feel like it ''to those who are in the majority politically''. That doesn't mean we should treat it as disruptive. It might just mean we need to pry open our own minds and that we should think about that possibility.

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

=== American politics 2: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* {{clerk note}} I have [[Special:Diff/1063291278|reformatted this request]] to match the expected format of an ARCA. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 05:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

=== American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*'''Recuse''' [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 19:36, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*I would like to hear the answer to starship.paint's query, but at the moment I am leaning towards accepting the appeal. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 20:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{re|Atsme}} Hi - are you appealing on the merits or because the sanction is no longer necessary? Parts of your appeal suggest the former and others suggest the latter. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 02:03, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*:For the information of my colleagues, I am not currently inclined to grant the appeal. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 18:44, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
* Is this a case of "I'm not interested in returning to the topic but it just bothers me to have a blot on my record"? Or is it because you are interested in editing about antifascism in the US, or expanding your editing about American politics in general? [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 05:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
**I am really good at being inactive, so I'm not going to hold a few days against anyone. Since Atsme [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=1064176907&oldid=1064175590 asked for time], I'll wait to vote till she's had time to follow up. If it helps focus your thoughts, I think it would be helpful to respond to some of the concerns expressed above about your previous commitments, and particularly Awilley's last post. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 07:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
*[[User:Atsme]], the language in [[Talk:Fascism]] and the article lede look to be in sync to me. Are you referring to an issue that was since fixed? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 03:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*:[[User:Atsme]], you'll see I supported below, but I encourage you to indeed make IDGAF your friend, and refer to it often when editing related to American politics. We may not have a formal definition of backsliding, but please take the criticism here to heart: if you say you're not going to do something, don't do it. Simple stuff, really. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
*:[[User:Wbm1058]]: Our colleagues at Wiktionary are a better place to check the basic meaning of a term, since the [[WP:DICDEF|dictionary defintion]] of a term usually isn't encyclopedic. [[wikt:backslide|Their definition]], as I noted to Atsme above, may not exactly correspond to a proscribed activity here, but presumably we never want to see editors regressing "to a previous, worse state". While this may be a side note, I wouldn't want a takeaway of this ARCA to be "ArbCom says there's no such thing as backsliding." --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
*I'm also amenable to this request at the moment. If people are concerned about Atsme's promises, we could put a "provisional" clause on the removal, that an uninvolved administrator can return it and if none have after 12 months it is completely removed. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 16:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
* {{u|Soibangla}}, [[:wikt:play the ball and not the man|''"play the ball"'']], predicting future retaliation does not advance the discussion in a constructive direction, nor does it contribute to good decision making. <small>([[WP:AGF]], [[WP:CIVIL]], [[Minority Report (film)]]...)</small>
:WTT's proposal sounds like a reasonable way forward. [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 10:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
* At this point in time I would also support WTT's idea. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 06:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
* I am not inspired by the total disengagement on Atsme's part on the 4th. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 00:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

===Motion: American politics 2===
{{ivmbox|1=Atsme's topic ban from post-WWII Anti fascism in the United States is provisionally lifted for a period of twelve months. If at any point before 1 January 2023 an uninvolved administrator feels that Atsme is not able to edit productively in this area, they may re-impose the topic ban.}}
{{ACMajority|active=14|inactive=0|recused=1|motion=yes}}
;Support
# [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 18:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
# <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 21:41, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
#I think this strikes the right balance. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 07:13, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 13:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# '''[[User talk:Maxim|<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#FF7133">Maxim</span><sub><small style="color:blue;">(talk)</small></sub></span>]]'''  15:54, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 16:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# Weakly. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 23:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# I can't oppose when the admin who imposed the original sanction [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=1064354962&oldid=1064348440 supports] its removal. But I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=1064313995&oldid=1064304075 this] is still not quite on the mark. There are some real concerns expressed here about the way you've approached your previous commitments in the area and your style of interaction on political topics, quite different from the friendly and affable Atsme we all know. I think sticking to IDGAF and just avoiding the topic altogether is exactly the right approach! [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 09:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 16:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

;Oppose
#
;Abstain
# I cannot support this but I won't stand in the way. '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 17:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# I am of the opinion that all editors have an obligation to edit from a neutral point of view, and that those who make their opinions on a topic well-known should be extremely cautious about editing in that area. I recognize that mine is a minority opinion, particularly within the U.S. Politics topic area, and as such I will not actively oppose this motion, but I do hope that {{u|Atsme}} and others consider this perspective. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 00:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
# I can't support this as well. [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 03:41, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

;Comments from arbitrators
:{{re|Bishonen}} Psychological value mostly. Like a New Year's resolution. And something to point to for extra support if there is a problem and an admin does need to restore the ban. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 22:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Amendment request: Motion: Crouch, Swale (January 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1064925920#Amendment request: Motion: Crouch, Swale|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]] '''at''' 17:48, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:[[Special:Diff/934849515]]

; Clauses to which an amendment is requested
#[[Special:Diff/934849515]]

; List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
*{{userlinks|Crouch, Swale}} (initiator)

; Information about amendment request
*[[Special:Diff/934849515]]
**Replace 1 article a week through AFC with 1 article a month without AFC.

=== Statement by Crouch, Swale ===
Please replace the 1 article a week through AFC with 1 article a month without needing to go through AFC. This will reduce the number of articles I can create a year from 52 to 12 but will mean I can create them directly however we should also consider allowing me to create a specified number of civil parishes for the [[User:Crouch, Swale/Missing parishes|parishes project]], there are 407 left as well as allowing appeal every 6 months. There are also a number of other suggestions I have made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Worm_That_Turned&diff=1062809221&oldid=1062707159 here]. Several editors at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=999753266#Amendment_request:_Crouch,_Swale last appeal] said they would be happy with allowing 1 article a week with no AFC but I don't think we need to allow 1 article a week on anything, it should probably only be 1 article a month but as noted a specified number of civil parishes for the project could be specified such as 1 article a month on anything and 1 parish 1 week etc so as noted it could just be 1 article every 3 months or 1 article every 6 months as long as the AFC requirement is removed. As noted before I have had very few articles declined at AFC. Please specify which options and what creation limits you accept even if its only 1 article a year, example, 1 article a month, 1 parish a week, appeal after 6 months.
*{{ping|Izno}} In the previous request several arbitrators said they would be happy with removing the need to go to AFC by allowing me to create 1 article a week, in this appeal I'm suggesting as the 1st option to reduce 1 article a week to 1 article a month. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  21:58, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{Ping|Izno}} That back in 2010 my article creations were generally poorly sourced and often contained little meaningful content while now I have produced much better articles such as population data, coordinates and history, see [[Shoreswood]] and [[Greenstead Green and Halstead Rural]] for example. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  22:47, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Primefac}} I haven't had any articles that I've created through AFC deleted (or redirected) at all not just this year. In several of those like [[South Wheatley, Nottinghamshire]], [[Uig, Duirinish]] and [[Sunds]] they were created in mainspace from my draft by other users and then history merged, in the case of [[Clarborough and Welham]], [[North and South Wheatley]] and [[Vildbjerg]] they were moved into mainspace by others. With regards to the abandoned drafts yes they get deleted under G13 but might get improved or moved by others and note that I don't have any restrictions on page creation in other namespaces per the 2019 amendment, the only restriction is the amount I ''submit''. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  20:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{Ping|Primefac}} Because the other requests have failed namely last year's one that included a suggestion for 1 article a week without AFC. As said separate from the 1st request the 2nd one was for a certain number of parishes which could have been 1 a week which would mean 5 a week in total rather than 4, without AFC but 4 out of those 5 would have to be (current) parishes. I'm happy to report that another 2 parishes have been created so we're down to 401. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Beeblebrox}} Because my last few previous appeals have failed so this time I'm making the 1st option low to reduce the chance of it completely failing. AFC is for new users and its a bit babyish for me as an experienced editor. While I agree it may have been helpful when I first joined Wikipedia in 2009 (though I was so clueless I probably would never have had any accepted) now I have shown I can create good articles. Since the community seem still concerned about me creating NN articles which are poorly sourced 1 a month would be an OK starting point and a different throttle limit for parishes (so that we can try to get the 406 missing parishes done as soon as reasonably possible) since while they are agreed to be notable by most people are still concerned about the quality of the articles. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  22:44, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Opabinia regalis}} Yes there's a rough consensus at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC]] linked by [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] above and [[WP:GEOLAND]]/[[WP:NPLACE]] that legally recognized places are (with the exception of census tracts) generally presumed to be notable. Of the 10,474 parishes in England there are 406 missing which means less that 1 in 25.79 are missing which has gone [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ACrouch%2C_Swale%2FCivil_parishes&type=revision&diff=1063368071&oldid=845240551 down] quite a bit in the last few years. If you look at other places around the world of administrative units created by [[Lsjbot]] on the other Wikipedias only England, Portugal and Wales that I've found so far (I haven't checked most places around the world) have missing articles here. If you look and the English Wikipedia and the native versions for other places you can see that they generally follow the same rules that I have suggested (and are already mostly done here) for low level municipalities namely having just 1 article if there is a settlement of the same name and separate articles if not, for example at [[Utzenaich]] and [[:de:Utzenaich]] have 1 combined article for both village and municipality just like [[Wrington]] covers both village and parish but when there isn't a settlement there will be separate articles such as [[:fr:Saline (Calvados)]] and [[Saline, Calvados]] and [[Ingatestone and Fryerning]] exist separately. Yes Adam is correct indeed that the English parishes have far less importance than many other similar units in different countries but they still clearly fall under being legally recognized. Regarding how quickly I can do this is being left open to the arbitrators which could be 10 parishes a day, 1 parish a day, 1 parish 1 week, 1 parish a month or 1 parish a year etc depending on how much you are prepared to allow. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  18:05, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{Ping|Opabinia regalis}} Thankyou for the motion but I'd make it clear that the 1 article a month without AFC replaces the 1 article a week submitted to AFC since it would not be clear on this since an appeal rarely revokes something and many will probably see going from weekly to monthly as a tightening. I'd put something like "This motion also revokes his ability to submit 1 article a week to AFC". Since normally if a new rule is made in place of an old one it would need to be made clear that the new rule in some way tightens the existing rule. Secondly what about moving drafts to mainspace in accordance with this new rule? If I've created a draft in draftspace or userspace then it should be OK for me to move it to mainspace as long as I'm following the rule, presumably it would only apply to drafts I have created but if not it would still only allow me to create (directly) or move to mainspace 1 article a month. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
*::{{Ping|Opabinia regalis}} With AFC wouldn't it just be clearer to say "He is not permitted to use AFC" since otherwise we'd be going from 1 article a week through AFC to 1 a month with AFC which wouldn't make sense. The whole point of going from weekly to monthly is to avoid AFC so it would seem clearer to just say I'm not permitted to submit ''any'' to AFC. As I asked above would you be OK with moving drafts from by userspace or draftspace into mainspace in accordance with the 1 a month rule. This avoids anyone saying at RMT "it needs to go to AFC". '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  09:56, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
*:::{{Ping|Opabinia regalis}} I have a topic ban on moving pages myself apart from in my userspace and that hasn't been modified since my unblock at the end of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=817961869#Crouch,_Swale_ban_appeal 2017]. Would something like "prohibition on [[WP:MOVE|moving]] or renaming pages (except within their own userspace <ins>and moving drafts to mainspace in accordance with the 1 article a month rule</ins>)". The new bit is in the ins. The benefit is that I may need to draft an article that may require work and note per [[WP:DRAFTOBJECT]] the author can object to drafting if for any reason I end up with some getting drafted which I don't expect to. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  23:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
*::::{{Ping|Opabinia regalis}} Thanks, all is clear now. Regarding AFC I have given up 75%+ of my article allowance to avoid having to use AFC so it would seem rather odd for me to do so but I guess there's little point in stating I can't. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:41, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Bradv}} There's a weak/rough consensus at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC]] (at least if they are created with enough content etc) which was part of the purpose of that RFC to pass that recommendation, yes there are some doubts but it seems the vast majority to agree if created appropriately but if you don't really feel that's satisfied you could recommend a low throttle limit like 1 a month. In contrast there was a rough consensus ''against'' them being created with a bot. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  19:24, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Bradv}} No there isn't anything after 2020 but what about the request to change the restriction from 1 article a week through AFC to 1 article a month (or less) without AFC? '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*::{{ping|Bradv}} Only really for the 2nd request (number of parishes I can create per week or month etc, namely increasing that number) probably not for the 1st request (being able to create 1 article a month on anything). For example supposing we grant the 1st request (being able to create 1 article a month on anything) and the 2nd request (number of parishes I can create) and we allow me to create 2 parishes a month (which is lower overall than my current 1 article a week at AFC) in 6 months I could ask the 2 parishes a month to be increase (say to 1 a week). '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  19:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*:::{{ping|Bradv}} So perhaps as a way of moving forward given as you and others point out there is a lack of clear consensus for me to mass create them, how about we grant request 1 (1 article a month on anything) and we grant request 2 as something low like 2 parishes a month and we also conditionally grant 3 on the condition that there is consensus at a RFC (which given I got several "have an permanent moratorium on these England Parish RFCs") could be started instead by [[User:PamD|PamD]] or someone else who has interest/knowledge in this and if there is consensus to mass create I can appeal in 6 months to see if we can allow more parishes to be created per week or month etc but there is not consensus for this then I'll have to wait a whole year again. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  20:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*::::{{ping|Bradv}} See my reply above to Opabinia regalis, the suggestion is to revoke AFC ''completely'' meaning I can't submit any. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:31, 7 January 2022 (UTC) 
*{{Ping|Worm That Turned}} I can't see that there is a consensus against creating them at all, only a consensus against having them crested with a bot and also perhaps having them created with minimal content. Is there a particular reason why the remaining 406 out of the 10,474 shouldn't exist or why England should be one of the few places in the world that we don't have complete coverage of? There is no local consensus there against creating good articles and there is more general consensus at [[WP:GEOLAND]] and [[WP:NPLACE]] that they ''should'' exist while the only requirement for mass creation is for bots and other semi-automated creation at [[WP:MASSCREATE]]. So while 406 would be considered "large" its not going to be automated or semi-automated. Regarding the creation rate, as I've said the number of articles or parishes I can create can be '''anything''' so we could replace 1 article a week through AFC with 1 article a year or even 0 articles a year which would effectively prevent me from creating any articles at all, what rate limit would you be happy with? '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{Ping|Worm That Turned}} The combination between that GEOLAND and the rough consensus at the RFC plus the fact that over 96% do currently exist here and the fact that most other places that I have checked do have 100% coverage on the English Wikipedia suggests it is a good idea. At the 2020 appeal you can see that PamD [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&diff=prev&oldid=934091730 made a suggestion] for allowing 1 a day plus redirects/DAB pages but unfortunately that was a few hours after you proposed the decline motion. Regarding my history I'd point out back in November 2010 when I was given autopatroll I had very little understanding of anything on Wikipedia and most of my articles had little content other than the location while I now have been producing much better articles. Why despite that significant improvement are we not even prepared to allow me to create a large number of specified articles over a period of time? Has WP suddenly go so much stricter? Or are we basing things on what happened over a decade ago? WTT I know you aren't because in the last appeal you said you aren't but I think I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Regarding the problems with my articles in the past very few have actually been deleted (ignoring those I got deleted under G7) but many of the NN hamlets were redirected to the parish they were in. As Primefac pointed out (and I then noted) none of my articles at AFC have later been deleted or even merged. Yes I understand bans can be good in that they keep the editor from getting into trouble in areas they have caused problems but in this case I have demonstrated that I can now produce acceptable articles. If you look at my category creation (which was one of the things that was pointed out back in 2017 so I ended up getting a page creation ban rather than just article creation) you can see that since the page creation ban was replaced with only an article creation ban I have produced [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/Crouch,%20Swale/14 1,065 categories] and the only ones that were deleted were [[:Category:Villages in Aberdeen]] which was later restored, [[:Category:Former communities in Gwynedd]] (because the former community came back) [[:Category:Isle of Gigha]] which was a redirect that was later moved over, [[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of 161.73.194.241]] which was emptied because the IP socks hadn't edited for over 2 years. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
*::{{Ping|Worm That Turned}} I'm not sure why you're mentioning large numbers of userspace drafts now, especially given the fact my unblock conditions in December 2017 mentioned that I was not restricted on creating pages in my userspace, that is even before the February 2019 amendment that allowed me to create pages in any namespace other than mainspace. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  09:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
*:::{{Ping|Worm That Turned}} Why would it be problematic to have around 400 drafts in userspace? I had wandered about doing this a while ago but I see little point especially when these are gradually being created meaning I may create drafts for articles that are later created by others. For the record we are now down to 400, and as I said a few of those 400 may not need articles anyway. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  09:22, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Thryduulf}} Perhaps because there is a proposal to allow me to create less articles than I currently can or none at all. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  18:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Donald Albury}} The modification to the base request of allowing me to create 1 article a month on any topic ''whatsoever'' (and the current situation where I can submit 1 article a week on any topic ''whatsoever'') is that I would also be allowed to create a set amount (say 2 a month or 5 a week etc) on '''only (current) civil parishes''' in accordance with the consensus at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes_RfC]] which I already suggested namely not having a separate article from the settlement of the same name. This distinction should be done because it means I am then restricted (at a higher rate) to create topics that are notable while still having some restriction to ensure I create the articles with enough content etc per the RFC. For example if it was 1 article a month and 2 parishes a week I could create 1 article on any topic whatsoever a month but I could also create 2 articles a week on only current parishes. For the record 1 has just been created so we're now down to 405. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  20:05, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|Cabayi}} No, firstly this is a request about (current) parishes not defunct ones, secondly parishes need their own article not merely a mention in a list or other article. The lists at [[:Category:Lists of civil parishes in England]] list the current ones and some of the former ones can be found at [[:Category:Former civil parishes in England]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{Ping|Cabayi|PamD}} I ''did'' notify all the county projects (or the talk page of the county) of any missing parishes, you can see [[Special:WhatLinksHere/User:Crouch, Swale/Missing parishes]]. A few were created as a result of those notifications and I notified a few editors who had previously been involved/interested in parish/other article creation. The idea of the project and dividing it up by county is that editors who are resident or otherwise interested in a particular county can make sure that there are no missing parishes in that relevant county. Regarding the other thing about 33 years, you missed the point, the 1 article a month was to allow me to create anything (the 1st request) the 2nd request was a specified number of parishes for the project to be allowed such as 1 a week or 1 a month etc but the 3rd request was to be allowed to appeal again in 6 months (as opposed to a year) so that we can increase the number of parishes I can create if all goes well and increase again in the next 6 months until all done. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  19:06, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{Ping|CaptainEek}} The 1 article a month is for other things, the 2nd part of the request is for the number of parishes. I don't see otherwise why you should object to a suggestion that we go from weekly to monthly but yes the other suggestion is to simply revoke it completely. And the ability to only appeal once a year is extremely onerous as it is so why would I not use it, that would be like you being entitled to be paid £1000 a month but only taking £1000 every 2 months. But yes on that note I'd quite happily give up my life savings to be able to contribute to the English Wikipedia without restriction. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  09:10, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*We're now down to 403 but there are around 15 that may not need articles. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  10:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by DGG ===
There remains NPP,  and anything odd is likely to be noticed there, as many of the same people work both. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 21:32, 2 January 2022 (UTC) 

=== Statement by Chess ===
As a somewhat experienced AfC reviewer I'll chime in to respond to {{u|Beeblebrox}}. AfC is extremely cluttered. The backlog is currently at 2516 pending submissions, with the oldest submissions requiring review being 2-3 months old. This is actually relatively good, as the backlog can sometimes reach to 5 months worth of articles. It's not unusual for editors to have to wait for months to get a review at AfC. This makes it an unbearable process for a lot of people, since by the time an article actually gets reviewed many people don't care anymore. Arbs should also consider the impact on AfC from these restrictions. If the restrictions are necessary to prevent disruption (I am unfamiliar with this user), so be it, but AfC submissions do require volunteer time & effort to review above that of [[WP:NPP]]. [[User:Chess|Chess]] ([[User talk:Chess|talk]]) <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|reply to|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 01:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Thryduulf ===
Regarding consensus for parish articles, the answer seems to be that there is currently no such consensus. The most recent relevant discussions I can find are:
*[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC]] from December 2020-January 2021 which didn't have that much participation and seems to have fizzled out with the general sentiment seeming to be that some but not all parishes should have articles.
*[[User talk:Crouch, Swale/Missing parishes]] from October 2021 where only [[user:Keith D|Keith D]] and Crouch, Swale commented. The discussion focused on infoboxes and recommended starting a wider discussion, but if that wider discussion happened I haven't found it. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:35, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
:Given that requirements of last year's request have not been met, have seemingly not even been attempted to be met, and recommendations for further discussion by other users since then have also not been followed up, I'm having a hard time understanding why this appeal is being considered? [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

===Statement by PamD===
As someone who in 2016-17 created articles for many of the missing parishes in Cumbria (a whole batch had been deleted as the creations of a blocked editor, I think), I support the idea that every civil parish in England should be represented in Wikipedia, whether as a stand-alone article or as a clear description/section within the article on the settlement whose name it shares. Parishes have population figures available from census info on NOMIS, mostly they have a parish council or parish meeting which has a website or a mention on the county's website, their history is sometimes of interest and available from Visions of Britain, etc. But I confess that [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC]] was just TLDR, hence my lack of input there. As for the Missing Parishes project, I chipped in at [[User:Crouch,_Swale/Missing_parishes_(1)#Cumbria]], and that set of lists of county-by-county missing parishes seems a useful starting point for creation of useful articles. So without commenting on the overall question of Crouch's restrictions, I support allowing at least a slightly more generous allowance for the creation of parish articles. [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 18:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
:Ah, as blue linked parishes are removed from the "Missing parishes" lists, no-one here will notice [[Barton and Pooley Bridge]] which I created yesterday (splitting and expanding the existing [[Barton, Cumbria]]), nor [[Skelsmergh and Scalthwaiterigg]] which was probably inspired by the same list when I created it back in October 2021. Perhaps a way forward is for there to be a bit of a blitz notifying the England county Wikiprojects about the missing parishes in their counties, in the hopes of a distributed effort polishing off this list: no bot creations, no mass input from Crouch, Swale, but a group of individual editors each picking off a few parishes in their area. Better than the 30 years calculated by {{ping|CaptainEek|Beeblebrox}}. [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 16:39, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{ping|Cabayi}} No, as I understand it the list of 400 are current parishes, so [[ Defunct parishes in England]] would be a large list but wouldn't include any of them.  [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 16:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor) ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Crouch, Swale: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
*

=== Crouch, Swale: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
* This appeal of restrictions, similarly to the last one you reference directly, does not appear to discuss the reasons why the restrictions exist nor why they should not exist today (or why they should be reduced). Can you clearly articulate why you think they do and why you think they should not? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 21:37, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{U|Crouch, Swale}} Let me repeat: {{tq|Can you clearly articulate why you think [your restrictions exist]?}} As for the second question, I am not interested in what you think the "several" arbitrators said last time. Let me try asking the question a different way to see if that helps you understand what my second question was asking: {{tq|What behavior can you show or what promises can you give that the behavior which earned you the restrictions in the first place will not be repeated?}} [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 22:40, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
*I agree with Izno and feel there remains the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&type=revision&diff=998501159&oldid=998454920 mismatch] I identified last year between the editor's good faith efforts to improve the encyclopedia and community forbearance of those efforts. See also [[WP:WILDFLOWERS]]. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 22:09, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
*I am somewhat torn on this request. On the one hand there are the issues mentioned above and in previous appeals. On the other hand, sanctions are meant to keep an editor within the acceptable bounds of how an editor is expected to behave. Looking at their talk page, as well as their [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/Crouch,%20Swale/all#0 page creation stats], it would appear they have successfully created a large number of pages that were eventually accepted; by my count only two declined drafts this last year. As a side note, there are 59 drafts created in 2020 that were abandoned, which is a wild departure from the apparent norms, but they are old enough I do not think they mean as much as they would have a year ago.{{pb}}If this sanction gets lightened (either one-per-week or one-per-month with no AFC), what is the tangible outcome of that? We have one less check on someone who has so far been ~95% successful in creating acceptable drafts{{snd}}even if they are stubs{{snd}}with no articles subsequently deleted in the last year. To me the latter aspect is the relevant bit; having drafts accepted only to be deleted would indicate a lack of keeping with community norms, but to have zero deleted afterward indicates that AfC might not strictly be necessary in this case.{{pb}}So yes, I see a bit of a outlier from what would be considered "good" on Barkeep49's "excitement scale" (see last year's appeal), but at the same time I do not see a significant impact to simply dropping the AfC requirement. I will have to mull this over whilst awaiting other comments, but at the moment I am leaning slightly towards accepting some version of this request. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 20:21, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*It's kind of an odd request and I'm not at all sure I understand the point, why would only being able to submit an article once a month or even once every three months be preferable to being able to submit on a week through AFC? What is it about AFC that is so unbearable a burden? [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 21:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
*Well, it can't be said that you're not persistent. You have a link above to "the parishes project", but the link goes to [[User:Crouch, Swale/Missing parishes|a page in your userspace]], not a wikiproject. You also say you want to {{tq|get the 406 missing parishes done as soon as reasonably possible}}. Is there community consensus that these topics are all notable enough for standalone articles? If so, then I don't see much harm in the proposed changes; if someone's had consistent success through AfC we can reasonably say they're likely to continue. But it also seems like this change won't get to your stated goals any faster, so I'm not quite sure I get it. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 05:17, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
**"Is there community consensus that these topics are all notable enough for standalone articles? " That's an excellent question, considering that the restriction explicitly requires it. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 05:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
***Yeah, and I don't read the discussion linked as even a rough consensus for much of anything, except ''not'' to do it by bot. At the risk of overstating my understanding of a topic I know nothing about, I'd say there's agreement these should be bluelinks, but not necessarily standalone articles. But so far the AfC articles are OK. In response to {{u|Thryduulf}}'s question, I'm open to it because the request seems to reduce the amount of community effort invested without much risk of harm. "12 articles a year, and you have to go back to AfC if any of them get deleted"? [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 08:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{u|Crouch, Swale}}, in response to your last appeal we modified your restriction to specify that you {{tq|"should ensure that there is consensus for any future large creations of articles, prior to making the request for relaxation of his restrictions."}} Have you done so? – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 19:16, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
*:{{u|Crouch, Swale}}, this committee is not going to decide whether you should be allowed to create all these articles. Per last January's appeal, it is up to you to ask the community for consensus to do so, and then we will consider lifting your restriction so that you can implement that consensus. The discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC]] predates your 2021 appeal, so unless you can point to something more recent, and with a clearer consensus, I am disinclined to grant this request. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 16:56, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*::{{u|Crouch, Swale}}, my issue with lifting any restrictions at this point is that we would be acting contrary to what we said last year, which is that you should seek consensus for these edits before asking for this. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 18:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Crouch, Swale}}, you are now suggesting that, if we can grant this request, you will appeal this restriction every six months in order to loosen your restriction further. You are basically asking ArbCom for permission to create these articles, when, as previously stated, you should be asking the community in the form of an RfC. I will not be voting to loosen your restrictions at this point, as I see no compelling argument for why we should overturn the previous motion. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 19:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*[[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]], I can take this discussion elsewhere if it's a diversion, but I don't understand the intent of WILDFLOWERS, even though I gather you're trying to keep it somewhat open-ended. My read of it is that the editor analog, despite good intentions, has a fundamentally wrong idea (i.e., wildflowers are weeds), and irritates the community by not recognizing that they're outside the mainstream. I assume this is a bad read on my part, because the key question when assessing an editor's behavior is not "Does the community like this?" but "Are they following policies and guidelines?" --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 02:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*:Your read is pretty close to what I was intending to say to Crouch, Swale @[[User:BDD|BDD]]. Policies and guidelines are always going to have some margin for interpretation; this is why, for instance, we have explanatory supplements to some policies and guidelines or why ArbCom lays out its interpretation in the principles decision of a case. WILDFLOWER suggests that there can be a good faith interpretation of policies and guidelines by an editor that falls outside of community consensus and when an editor tries to act on that good faith but outside the consensus position that it will be seen as disruptive by the community. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 17:26, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*::Perhaps my read of it was too narrow; I assumed the position "these wildflowers are weeds" to be outright wrong, but perhaps the idea was that it was a valid but not widely held position? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 19:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*:Chess's comment, combined with Crouch, Swale's record over the past year, makes me think the AfC requirement is burdening the community without a clear benefit. Mea culpa, I didn't read carefully enough this year and thought the request was to go from monthly to weekly rather than vice versa. I probably misread because the actual request sounds like a step back to me. Nevertheless, I can support the first sentence of the request. The rest, I would have to think of. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 19:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*{{u|Crouch, Swale}} seems to be our regular January visitor, indeed, I think he's the only person we've had to actively restrict from appealing by motion. Throughout those many appeals, I've not seen evidence that Crouch, Swale is aware of the level of disruption that his mass creation has caused, and yes, {{u|Barkeep49}} we're definitely in the [[WP:WILDFLOWERS]] territory. I've also regularly said that I have no intention of relaxing his restriction.{{br}} More, we're still stuck on the fact that there is not consensus for the mass creation of these articles. [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes_RfC]] wasn't a weak consensus for the mass creation, it was an active consensus against. It accepted that articles could be created with decent content. Handwaving towards [[WP:GEOLAND]] or [[WP:NPLACE]] don't solve this specific consensus that the articles shouldn't be mass created. {{br}} However, I will say that his article writing skill appear to have improved, and I am heartened by the fact that the articles are coming out positively, and I do appreciate his request to reduce the frequency of his creations while removing the AfC requirement, a reasonable compromise, as effectively it is reducing the rate of creation. I have to say, I would be open to this change if other arbs are. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 16:30, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]], when reading the updated motion, it was something that occurred to me. I have no issue with you creating pages for the purpose of moving them live within your restriction. However, '''mass''' creating the articles in your user-space would be problematic. You haven't done that as yet (as far as I know), and have given no indication that you intend to, so this shouldn't be a problem. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 09:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
*::@[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]] - it would be problematic for ''you'' to mass create the articles in your user space for the same reason that it would be problematic for ''you'' to mass create the articles in article space. There is no consensus for mass creation of these pages, and it's down to you to get that consensus, and combined with [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]], it's clear that it's something you shouldn't be doing. Years down the line, you still do not appear to appreciate the disruption you caused when you were banned by the community, nor that the committee needs to be satisfied that similar disruption will not occur again. If this isn't something you're intending, then it might be best to simply end this conversation. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 10:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
*While I wish {{u|Crouch, Swale}} were a little less focused on completing his list ("so that we can try to get the 406 missing parishes done as soon as reasonably possible"), I'm willing to let him show how he does under the modification he proposes. - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 18:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
* ''"The Fourth Annual {{u|Crouch, Swale}} Amendment Request"'' does not have a good ring to it, and fills me with a sense of foreboding for January 2023. I'm reluctant to dive into horsetrading over article numbers and whether they're reviewed at AFC or NPP, especially while there's a pool of 407 drafts in waiting. Nor do I favour letting the restrictions and appeals drag on forever, consuming reviewer time and Arbcom time unnecessarily.{{pb}}Would a [[Defunct parishes in England]] article recording these parishes (somewhat akin to the [[Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844#Areas transferred|Areas transferred]] section of [[Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844]]) make a significant reduction in the list of outstanding work? [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 10:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
*:The point to the previous question was to see if {{u|Crouch, Swale|you}} were looking at any other way of achieving your objective. Rhetorical questions - ''Why is it in a userpage? Why isn't it organised under [[Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography]]?'' You appear to be tackling the list in a [[WP:OWN|proprietorial]] manner which leads inexorably to your annual amendment request. With 400+ articles to create and a projected 30 year timeline, an alternative, collaborative approach to your list is needed. This request is fiddling around the edges of the issue with minimal prospect of making any significant impact on your target, and little prospect of lifting the restriction completely (which is everybody's desired end-goal). "[[There's more than one way to do it]]" and it would be of benefit all round if you'd look for another way. [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 17:13, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*'''No.''' Less is more is a weird argument when the goal is to create 400+ articles. At 12 articles a year, that would take 30 years! I don't see how restricting a person, without cause, to make ''less'' content is building an encyclopedia. Absent some pressing need on your end, the status quo looks fine. Is AfC overburdened? Yes. Is one article a week going to make a monumental difference? No.
:I agree with Cabayi and Worm that the annual amendment request is not reassuring. I suggest that the next appeal be your last, and that it seek to simply remove your restriction altogether. I don't like this horsetrading restrictions business. You should make the appeal only when you are confident that you fully understand the process, the expectations, and that your content will not require review. Otherwise, you waste your time and ours. Wait a year, two years, five even. But if I think you're appealing just for the heck of it going forward, I will not take kindly to it. Just because you can appeal in a year doesn't mean you should.
:The last motion stated that consensus was needed for large creation of articles. As far as I see, the RfC seemed against the mass creation, or at least no consensus as Thryduulf says. So perhaps you need a new RfC, in a better location, focused more precisely on whether the articles as a batch are notable (and if so, should be created by you). I think the last one suffered from being in a low traffic area. But beyond that, its a content issue, which is outside our wheelhouse. On the bright side, now I know what a civil parish is. Ya learn something new everyday... [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 00:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
:*Yeah, I got curious myself and did the math. 33 years seems a bit long. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 00:24, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
*My thinking currently aligns with Primefac's, but I also certainly would be just fine declining this appeal. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 20:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

===Motion: Crouch, Swale===
{{ivmbox|1=[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]]'s editing restrictions, previously modified [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=882716575#Crouch,_Swale:_motion in 2019], are modified as follows: He may create <ins> at most</ins> one new mainspace article per month <ins>through any process</ins>. He is not required to use the Articles for Creation process, <ins>and is not permitted to use it to exceed this rate</ins>. This restriction includes the creation of new content at a title that is a redirect or disambiguation page. <ins>This supersedes the second bullet point of the 2019 motion. Additionally, he may move userspace or draftspace pages to mainspace for the purpose of creating his one article per month, as an exception to his [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=817961869#Crouch,_Swale_ban_appeal page move restriction].</ins> His [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=934849515#Motion:_Crouch,_Swale restriction] on frequency of appeals remains in force.  }}

'''Enacted''' - [[User:Dreamy Jazz|Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">'''Jazz'''</i>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Dreamy Jazz|talk to me]]'' &#124; ''[[Special:Contribs/Dreamy Jazz|my contributions]]''</sup> 22:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

{{ACMajority|active=15|inactive=0|recused=0|motion=yes}}
:;Support
# Weak support. I don't mind the January appeals - it's a well-known pattern by now, but it really is true that the beginning of the year is best for getting arb attention to your issue. I'm not thrilled by the approach here, essentially ignoring the consensus element of the previous motion, and showing a clear lack of perspective. But, the request is actually asking for ''less'' total community time invested. So, OK. You won't get your list done very fast at that rate, but maybe you'll discover some of the remaining entries on the list don't really need their own article, or others will decide to write some. You could always work on building up the content of existing articles on notable places. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 07:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# Yeah, not really happy about the horse-trading and the lack of commitment to identifying a consensus myself, but OR is reasonable here. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 07:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#:Indenting until the below issue is fixed. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 06:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
#::As modified. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 08:54, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
# Pragmatically, yes. I'm not happy for a number of reasons, largely because he hasn't done what has been asked, and I'm not looking forward to yet another appeal in a years time. However, as OR rightly points out, this solution is one that Crouch, Swale is requesting and involves less community disruption than the present restriction. What's more, he's not been breaching his restriction, so there does appear to be little risk in this. So, yes, I suppose so. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 13:44, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#:Supporting latest updates, but I would like to point out that mass creating 400 odd articles in his userspace would be considered disruptive. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 08:59, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
#I am weakly supporting. Philosophically I am at the point with Crouch Swale that the only appeal I want to accept is one that repeals the restrictions. The comments at the annual ARCA review show a continued lack of understanding of the core issues; the fact that it's dependably an annual event does as well. However, I recognize that this requires marginally less community time and editor time is incredibly precious so the value of trying (again) to send a message to Crouch about all this is outweighed by the ways I want to safeguard editor time. However, ''if'' I am on ArbCom in the next two years I am very unlikely to consider voting for any appeal that isn't a ''repeal''. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 16:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#:Affirming after OR's tweak. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 17:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
#::I am getting nervous. The only reason I am supporting this motion is to save community time. If this change is going to require further clarification/discussion outside of this request, the small benefit I'm perceiving is likely to be squandered. I'll affirm a second change, and agree with OR about draftspace. But I gave serious thought to switching to oppose rather at this point given what we, apparently, don't know with this new motion. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 16:19, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
#Not much to add. I'm in agreement with those above. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#[[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 20:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#:Supporting with latest updates. - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 21:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
# Per WTT, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 02:25, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
#:Supporting with OR's edits. '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 08:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
#::Supporting with latest updates. '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 06:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
# I'm philosophically with Barkeep49 here, but this amendment makes for less work for others, so I can live with it. '''[[User talk:Maxim|<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#FF7133">Maxim</span><sub><small style="color:blue;">(talk)</small></sub></span>]]'''  15:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
#: Confirming my vote. '''[[User talk:Maxim|<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#FF7133">Maxim</span><sub><small style="color:blue;">(talk)</small></sub></span>]]'''  16:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
# The proposal will mean there's even less evidence to support easing restrictions at next year's inevitable appeal. However it offers a prospect of hope that collaboration will feature more heavily. [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 16:05, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
# While I think it would most definitely benefit Crouch, Swale when they make their inevitable appeal next year to have an actual, well-attended and clear RFC that states whether what they are doing is acceptable to the community or not, I cannot deny that they have held to their restriction and have been doing a good job of writing reasonable articles. I do not understand why they are looking for fewer articles written per year as their relaxation, but if that is what they want that is what they will apparently get. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 16:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
#:Reaffirming my support with the added addendum - would hate to hobble progress in the name of pedantry. I would also like to request, as OR has done, that next year's appeal be the final one, where everything is requested to be revoked and it can be demonstrated that your editing and creations have consensus. This is just a request, though it would make all of our lives easier in the long run. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 12:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
:;Oppose
#Per my comments above, I'm not inclined to grant any reprieve here without doing what we asked at previous appeals. The way this is worded there is also no restriction on submitting articles to AfC, which is not something I can support. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 17:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#I get why they don't want to do AFC. I don't see the point of the rest of it. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 18:51, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
#See my comments above. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 19:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
# Per CaptainEek's comments above. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 22:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

:;Abstain
#
:;Comments from arbitrators
:I think there's been enough views aired here; time to get an up-or-down vote on this one. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 07:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
:How does being able to create one new mainspace article per month work with the restriction to submit only one article to AfC every 7 days? In other words, would this motion permit Crouch, Swale to create one mainspace article per month ''and'' send one article to AfC per week? Is there no restriction on using AfC, or is there a de-facto ban on it if the motion passes? '''[[User talk:Maxim|<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#FF7133">Maxim</span><sub><small style="color:blue;">(talk)</small></sub></span>]]'''  15:54, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
::I was of the understanding that this was ''instead of'', and that he should not be using the AfC process - but I can see how this new motion is not clear on that. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 15:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
:::My support is based on that understanding as well. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
::::This really needs to be fixed before this passes. As worded, we could end up with 400+ parish articles at AfC. – [[User:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]][[User talk:Bradv|<sup style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:60%">🍁</sup>]] 05:00, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
::::Mine too. '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 06:25, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
:::Well, obviously. What happens when something you think is obvious hits the real world... see above if that works for you. I don't see the point of ''banning'' anyone from AfC without disruption there, but if CS did submit a draft, that's his one for the month. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 08:05, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
:{{re|Crouch, Swale}} You can use AfC if you want, you just don't have to (just like everybody else). It doesn't matter how an article gets to mainspace - you can start it in your sandbox, or in your userspace, or as a draft, and then move it to mainspace when it's finished. A lot of people do that, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Papain-like_protease&diff=1062406609&oldid=1062406555 including me]. But one per month, whatever path you take. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 22:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
::{{re|Crouch, Swale}} good point, I'd forgotten about that. This nested set of restrictions has me convinced that the comments above have a point - your next visit to ARCA should demonstrate an extended period of successful collaborative work and should aim for a repeal. 
::{{@ArbCom}} Sorry for the multiple revisions, please see above. I think we want CS to have the ability to use his sandbox/userspace/etc to make sure his articles are ready for primetime. [[User:Opabinia regalis|Opabinia regalis]] ([[User talk:Opabinia regalis|talk]]) 23:31, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Clarification request: Non-ARBPIA Western Asia disruption (February 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1072982621#Clarification request: Non-ARBPIA Western Asia disruption|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:El C|El C]] '''at''' 15:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:Non-ARBPIA Near East disruption

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{admin|El C}} (initiator)

''Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request''
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->


=== Statement by El C ===
I hate this template <u>so</u> much! Erm, as you may or may not know, there has been a resurgence in disruption pertaining to [[Turkey]] and [[Turkic peoples]] (especially [[Turkish people]]) lately, at times with the [[Armenian genocide]] as its nexus, other times with a less modern historical focus ([[Ottoman Empire]] and earlier), especially vis-à-vis [[Iranian peoples]] (esp. [[Persians]]). 

There are 4 threads related to these topics at [[WP:ANI]] right now <small>(permalinks: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1070257072#Abrvagl #Abrvagl,] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1070257072#Arvinahmadi1994 #Arvinahmadi1994,] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1070257072#37.111.218.179 #37.111.218.179,] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1070257072#WP:NOTHERE_by_Mountain_gora #WP:NOTHERE_by_Mountain_gora])</small>, which is on the high end of normal. At a (2nd) glance, these all appear to be disparate individuals and related sub/topics.

Anyway, the [[WP:KURDS]], [[WP:AA2]], and to a lesser extent [[WP:ARBIRP]] DSs, provide a lot of overlapping coverage (coverage which isn't the easiest to navigate, but it's aiight), except when they don't. Maybe it's time for some creative stuff? And things? I dunno. Thanks for indulging me! [[User:El_C|El_C]] 15:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

:{{u|Guerillero}}, <s>[[WP:BALKANS]] redirects to [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia]], so looks like I win this round!</s> 
:{{u|Barkeep49}}, I think #37.111.218.179 would not be covered ,possibly more. Sorry, writing in haste. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 16:43, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

::Oh, only lowercase [[wp:balkans]], I knew that. My memeory is so bad and now I'm sad. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 16:55, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Guerillero, briefly, to reduce the stupid quotient: the Ottoman-Euro stuff is probably covered, but I have doubts whether the Ottoman-Iranian (and beyond) would be. So, topics such as [[Turco-Persian wars]], [[Ottoman–Safavid relations]] and so on. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 19:08, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm questioning the coherence of some of the above, so I'll put it another way. Two likely things would happen to a Western Asian disruptive account that isn't blatant enough for a simple WP:DE-block. Either their disruption will become prolific enough that they'll get a siteban or equivalent at AN/ANI (which is often hard to come by due to lack of familiarity with the subject matter by the average reviewer of these noticeboards). Or, eventually, they'll run afoul of the existing DSs. <small>Sometime, they become productive contributors, lest we forget that does happen, though unfortunately not as often.</small>

Basically, I'm concerned with the attrition faced by our veteran contributors who regularly edit these topics. Honestly, I don't really know what to do. I originally just wanted a better alert system that accounted/connected these to the other non-ARBPIA Western Asian DSs, but I'm not sure that it can be done under the current system without having a blanket ''Western Asia of all/most eras'' DS, which doesn't seem too feasible (or desirable). 

The point is that, to me, it feels like the bleed in this area has become near constant. So now I put it out there, FWIW. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 23:20, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

:{{re|Worm That Turned|Barkeep49}} yeah, sorry guys, it might have made more sense in my head. But as I was saying, it just feels like this disruptive Turkish-Iranian nexus has been getting worse, from history to naming conventions and beyond. Both countries have a combined population that's less than Brazil's, or 100 mil less than Indonesia, and I can't even remember the last time I've seen disputes involving those countries at ANI (the entire region: ARBPIA, AA2, KURDS, ARBIRP).
:But in hindsight, I don't know what I was expecting. Slip Turkey into an existing DS somehow? But which one and how to have it make sense, that I don't have an answer to. Thanks again. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 21:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

::{{re|Barkeep49}} thanks, that's fair. But, no, no GS for me! It took me three tries to get [[WP:GS/IRANPOL]] off the ground, now superseded by [[WP:ARBIRP]], so if it comes down to it, I'm just gonna try the second thing. ;) [[User:El_C|El_C]] 21:51, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Guerillero ===
Wouldn't Turkey and the Ottoman Empire fall under [[WP:ARBEE|Eastern Europe and the Balkans]]?  --[[User:Guerillero|<span style="color: #0b0080">Guerillero</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Guerillero|<span style="color: green;">Parlez Moi</span>]]</sup> 16:15, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Non-ARBPIA Near East disruption: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
*

=== Non-ARBPIA Near East disruption: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*{{u|El C}} - I will read through those threads you've linked but for this time-starved arb's benefit can you provide a few diffs that show disruption that isn't covered by current DS? Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 16:26, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
*:Of the diffs provided the only one that arguably is not covered by existing DS is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1070257072#37.111.218.179 this one] and I'm just not seeing enough there to justify any kind of DS change. There is always going to be some degree of persistent low level conflict on Wikipedia and we have processes for dealing with those. DS is for when those processes can't or don't work. I will continue to watch this, and if there are others who have comments I would like to hear them as the community feedback was important (despite my not returning to post to it) at the recent AA/IPA discussion. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 15:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
*::{{u|El C}} I think if disruption in Turkey remains bad and difficult to solve that you could certainly do a case request for us to consider the topic area / form new DS. Or you could ask the community to create a GS in the area (though as we've seen this does currently limit the ability to use AE). Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 21:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
*This is always a difficult area to cover, and I appreciate that we have quite a few different DS regimes for a roughly defined geographic area "West Asia" - but I'm not sure I'm seeing a solution at present. I'd not be happy to combine the regimes, because the are based on different conflicts and if one does resolve, I'd like to be able to consider removing it - similarly I don't like the idea of casting too wide a net and catching issues that the community should be dealing with normally. I will read and think, think and read - but I would certainly appreciate more thoughts from the community. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 13:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles (February 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1073552198#Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:Shrike|Shrike]] '''at''' 19:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:{{RFARlinks|Palestine-Israel articles}}

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Shrike}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Dennis Brown}}
* {{userlinks|El_C}}
''Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request''
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADennis_Brown&type=revision&diff=1072845129&oldid=1072798576]
*[[Special:Diff/1072847494|El_C]]

=== Statement by Shrike ===
First of all, I don't seek sanctions for anyone so it's not an appeal on the recent AE case[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=1072832230#Iskandar323] but rather a clarification. Here are my questions:
# Does 1RR violation occur? In this case, the revert was of two different and not connected parts of articles Dennis Brown  has said [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=1072579819&oldid=1072576235] to enforce the decision the reverts should be somehow connected did his interoperation correct?
# It's costumery that if the violation occurred user is asked to self-revert in this case but if not possible to self-revert? Does the user get a free pass?
{{re|Dennis Brown}} Thank you for your answer, But here removal was of recent material so it has nothing to do with age the user removed twice the name of the countries the first removal was edit the second is a revert [[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 20:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

:@[[User:L235|L235]]@[[User:Izno|Izno]] Thank you for your comments I seek clarifications about 1RR and proper enforcement that are both decisions by ARBCOM. I think my questions is relevant especially question as it the first I hear such interpretation of revert rules [[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 18:40, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Dennis Brown ===
In the case given, one revert was obvious, the other was removing some unrelated material in a different part of the article.  1RR doesn't mean you can do normal editing, which can be adding or removing material.  As I said in AE (and I will expand on), my understanding is there needs to be some kind of link, although not directly.  

::1. Reverting something recent an editor just added, then reverting something new someone else added?  That's two reverts, a problem.  
::2.  Reverting the same material twice, obviously.  
::3.  If the two edits revert (add or take away) the same type of material, say changing "Israel" to "Palestine" in two different places, then yes, 1RR is breached. 

There are others, those are just the most obvious. But if you have reverted once in 24 hours, saying that NO material may be removed or changed would essentially mean that once you have reverted something, you can't edit for 24 hours at the risk of making minor changes that someone will see as "reverting material added previously".  I don't think 1RR is meant to be overarching and onerous as to prevent the normal editing of articles.  It's only meant to prevent disruption.  How old does material need to be before removing it isn't really a "revert"?  I don't have a number, but I can tell when it is soon enough to count under 1RR, and not every removal of prose is a "revert".

As to "get a pass", that doesn't really apply here, and that isn't so much a matter of the policy as the judgement of the admin enforcing Arbitration areas.  Admin are given great latitude in handling these cases, within the boundaries of WP:ADMINACCT.  El C closed it, and I didn't see his close as a "pass". The solution to every problem isn't always the ban hammer anyway. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 19:47, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
*{{u|Shrike}}, we aren't here to relitigate the case, which is beyond the scope here. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 22:23, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by El_C ===
{{u|Shrike}}, to reiterate what I said at AE, whether this (replacing something with something else vs removing that thing outright) was a violation may well end up being subject to admin interpretation where one's mileage may vary. As mentioned, I wouldn't have counted this as a violation, though it technically may be one. A different admin might see it different.

As I noted to {{u|Dennis Brown}} [refactor], my understanding is that 1RR follows the mechanic of 3RR: {{tq|whether involving the same or different material.}} But I [also added how I] can understand wanting to omit that to lessen the gotcha/stumble factor somewhat.

Shrike, about the "free pass": in my view, even if self-reverting would no longer be possible, it's still advisable to raise the matter with the user all the same (XYT). The goal is to foster best practices through good faith dialogue, not have a tit-for-tat of... I dunno ''that time their side got a free pass but this time ours didn't,'' and so on. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 19:52, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

:{{u|Zero0000}}, well, I'd refer to commons sense, under which repeat and frequent offenders are more likely to receive sanctions than they are further allowances. In those instances, I'd therefore view the expectation for the reporting user to engage with the reported user (self-rv'esque discussion) to likewise diminish. In any case, I don't know that there's a magic formula to balance out the pitfalls of either excess admin discretion with that of a too rigid ruleset, as affecting both involved editors and uninvolved admins alike. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 09:59, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Zero0000 ===
I agree with El_C that "{{tq|whether involving the same or different material}}" applies to 1RR. The problem is more that "revert" is not itself defined precisely, and the definition as such does not always match the motivation of slowing down edit wars.

It should be expected at AE that editors are given the chance to self-revert 1RR violations before being reported. However, editors should not be able to use this right as a way to make repeated risk-free reverts, only self-reverting when asked to. Everyone should have an allowance for honest mistakes, but only a limited allowance.

=== Statement by Vanamonde ===
Speaking as the third admin who commented on the request in question; I agree entirely with Zero0000 below. 1RR certainly applies to different content, but determining what constitutes a revert can sometimes be tricky. With respect to sanction enforcement, what becomes important is the effect and perceived intent of the edit. Gaming of 1RR, and slow edit-warring, is usually easy to spot; it didn't seem to be a part of the motivation here. That's why I was not supportive of a sanction; not because users get a free pass if they aren't given a chance to self-revert. As such I don't see anything for ARBCOM to clarify here, unless Shrike is directly appealing the AE decision, which they say they're not. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]])</span> 17:17, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Palestine-Israel articles: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* Added El_C as a party per arb request. [[User:GeneralNotability|GeneralNotability]] ([[User talk:GeneralNotability|talk]]) 19:30, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Palestine-Israel articles: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
* I do not see a need for clarification here from ArbCom at this time. Neither of the two questions asked appear to fit into the scope of ARCA (you are not seeking a modification and the clarifications sought do not derive from a direct statement or decision of ArbCom). They probably would have been suitable for the enacting administrator's talk page, though both that admin and another who was part of the consensus in the AE discussion of interest have both answered. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 12:12, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
*:{{U|Shrike}}, please point to a direct ARBCOM statement or decision that supports "I seek clarifications about 1RR and proper enforcement that are both decisions by ARBCOM". ArbCom neither defines a revert (you may review [[WP:EW]]), nor does it define an apparent custom around a request to revert a revert. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 19:00, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
* Procedurally, I agree with Izno. {{re|Shrike}} Pursuant to {{slink|Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Dismissing_an_enforcement_request}}, you do have the right to {{tqq|appeal the dismissal}} of an AE thread to ARCA, but it looks like you've explicitly disclaimed such a path ({{tqq|1=I don't seek sanctions for anyone}}). Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 17:50, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
*Concur with my colleagues above. Shrike, I see nothing wrong with what you have been told at AE, and already on this ARCA. I do not believe relitigating the AE is productive nor helpful. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 08:37, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Kurds and Kurdistan: topic ban clarification (February 2021) ==

:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1009163338#Kurds and Kurdistan: topic ban clarification|Original discussion]]'''''
{{archive top}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds and Kurdistan]]

=== Motion: clarify scope of topic bans ===
{{ivmbox|1=The phrase "articles related to" in the topic bans for GPinkerton, Thepharoah17, عمرو بن كلثوم, and Supreme Deliciousness are struck, to clarify that the bans are not limited to article-space.}}
'''Enacted''' - [[User:GeneralNotability|GeneralNotability]] ([[User talk:GeneralNotability|talk]]) 02:02, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
:{{ACMajority|active = 12 |inactive = 2 |motion = yes}}
;Support
:#As proposer. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# Easy fix. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 17:20, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:#[[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 17:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# Thankfully it is much easier to fix mistakes in the online cases; back in the day when you made a mistake on the 15 metre tall granite ArbCom steles, that was a real pain to fix :P [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 17:28, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# '''[[User talk:Maxim|<span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="color:#FF7133;">Maxim</span><sub><small><span style="color:blue;">(talk)</span></small></sub></span>]]''' 17:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 18:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 18:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 19:43, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:# [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 01:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
;Oppose

;Abstain

;Comments
*This is the result of a drafting error, which I regret. None of the named parties have exploited this potential loophole, which I appreciate. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
*:Don't feel too bad; not only did the three of us miss it, the entire committee ''and'' those commenting on the PD missed it! Easy thing to miss, to be honest. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 17:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

===Community discussion: Kurds and Kurdistan topic ban clarification===
{{archive bottom}}

== Amendment request: Kurds and Kurdistan (March 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1078239788#Amendment_request:_Kurds_and_Kurdistan|Original discussion]]'''''
{{archive top}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] '''at''' 16:26, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:{{RFARlinks|Kurds and Kurdistan}}

; Clauses to which an amendment is requested
#{{section link|Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan#Supreme_Deliciousness_topic-banned}}


; List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
*{{userlinks|Supreme Deliciousness}} (initiator)


; Information about amendment request
*{{section link|Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan#Supreme_Deliciousness_topic-banned}}
:*Removal of topic ban


=== Statement by Supreme Deliciousness ===
It has now been over 1 year since the topic ban was implanted. I have read everything in the arbitration case and the Principles:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan#Principles] and I promise to follow the principles and rules. I am asking for the topic ban to me removed as it is not needed. --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 16:26, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

{{u|Barkeep49}}, its best to use modern academic sources as much as possible, and if older historical sources are used for some information, for example for a historical perspective, then that info should be presented as being from that specific historical source. Any edits in the topic area must be based on a reliable source, this also includes discussions at the talkpage. Furthermore I can tell you right now that I have 0% interest to participate in any kind of uncivil discussion with anyone at any talkpage. --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 18:25, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

{{u|BDD}}, in the case of the A-I conflict then there is an overwhelming large majority worldview that the occupied territories Israel captured in 1967 are not part of Israel, this includes the UN, EU and other large international organizations. I believe it is npov to follow this large majority worldview and not present the occupied territories as part of Israel. Sources for this can be easily obtained but I don't believe its appropriate to ad sources for this large worldview every time I edit within the A-I conflict for obvious reasons. If someone disputes this, then I can show them high quality sources at the talkpage. 

In the case of "Kurds and Kurdistan", because of what happened last year with the arb case and the behavior of some people, then I should be extra careful to avoid any issue, so I plan to always use a high quality academic source when I make edits within the topic area, or as I said above for historical info properly attribute it to the historical source. I believe in some instances a reliable well known news agency could also be used for some info but its a case by case basis. If any other editor objects to any edit I make then obviously it would have to be discussed at the talkpage in a calm and civil way with good sources until the issue is settled. If someone is uncivil then that person can be brought to Enforcement and be blocked/banned, so I don't believe there will be a problem now.  --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 17:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

{{u|WormTT}}, I will be more careful in which sources I use in the topic area. DS is also in effect now so any disruption by anyone, and that person can be brought to enforcement and the problem will be settled there quickly. --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 16:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Kurds and Kurdistan: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
*

=== Kurds and Kurdistan: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*{{u|Supreme Deliciousness}}, can you explain how your editing will change if we accept your appeal to address the issues found in the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan#Supreme_Deliciousness|case]] about your prior conduct? [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 16:55, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
*:Based on their answer above, and my (albeit not thorough) look at their editing history since November I am tentatively prepared to accept this appeal, though perhaps with an explicit note that it may be reinstated. It could, under DS, be reinstated without such a note but would also make clear to admin that they are authorized to act should reinstatement in this topic area restart the kinds of behaviors that led to the TBAN in the first place. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 21:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
*{{u|Supreme Deliciousness}}, I see much of your recent editing has been in the topic area of the Palestine–Israel conflict, broadly construed. I take this as a good sign, that you're able to edit another area related to ethnic conflicts in Western Asia without any obvious trouble, like further blocks. Could you draw on this experience to explain how you would approach editing Kurds and Kurdistan again? How have you dealt with potential conflict with other editors? How have you identified high-quality sources? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 21:08, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
*I am waiting for a reply to BDD, but at the moment I am leaning towards accepting. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 11:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
*I'd like to hear a response to BDD's questions also, but in addition, I'd like to know a bit more about what Supreme Deliciousness feels has changed? At the case, I was considering a full site ban, as I was aware that he had been restricted in 2009 for similar behaviour, back when Arbcom gave time limited restrictions, as well as multiple blocks in the wider topic area. A simple "it's been a year and I promise" isn't quite what I'm looking for. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 13:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
*:Noting that I remain unconvinced, {{u|Supreme Deliciousness}}, do you have any comment as to we had to deal with similar issues 10 years ago and 1 year ago? Any comment on why it won't happen again? [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 08:49, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*The positive editing in Israel/Palestine areas is most reassuring. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 06:18, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*I am open to lifting the topic ban, and DS remains authorized in this topic area in the event of any problems. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 07:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
===Motion Kurds and Kurdistan===
{{ivmbox|[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness']] topic ban from Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed is lifted subject to a probationary period lasting twelve months from the date this motion is enacted. During this period, any uninvolved administrator may re-impose the topic ban as an arbitration enforcement action, subject to appeal only to the Arbitration Committee. If the probationary period elapses without incident, the topic ban is to be considered permanently lifted.}}
{{ACMajority|active=11|recused=1|motion=yes}}
'''Enacted''' - [[User:GeneralNotability|GeneralNotability]] ([[User talk:GeneralNotability|talk]]) 15:55, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
;Support
#Given that the previous tban was many years ago and they've shown themselves able to edit a contentious topic area without sanction I support lifting this topic ban. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 19:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
#[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 21:08, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
#Productive editing in contentious topics is a good sign, and the answers to Barkeep's and BDD's questions are good. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 22:34, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
# This is reasonable. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 22:35, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
# I would say that SD's answers here have been at best "ok", but broadly per Barkeep. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 11:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
# [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 11:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
;Oppose

;Abstain
# I remain unconvinced that this is a good idea, but the combination of DS being available, the probationary period, and the recent good work moves me to Abstain rather than oppose [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 08:35, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

;Arbitrator comments
{{archive bottom}}


== Amendment request: Discretionary sanctions procedure page and templates (March 2022) ==
:'''''[[Special:Permalink/1078654348#Amendment request: Discretionary sanctions procedure page and templates|Original discussion]]'''''
{{atop}}
'''Initiated by''' [[User:Newslinger|Newslinger]] '''at''' 04:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected
:[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions]] (procedure)

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{admin|Newslinger}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Sideswipe9th}}
*{{userlinks|ProcrastinatingReader}}
*{{admin|Czar}}

''Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request''
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
*[[Special:Diff/1076731607/1077408581]] – Sideswipe9th
*[[Special:Diff/1077177161/1077408614]] – ProcrastinatingReader
*[[Special:Diff/1076722877/1077408643]] – Czar

=== Statement by Newslinger ===
In the [[WP:DS2021|2021 discretionary sanctions review]] and on [[Template talk:Ds]], several suggestions have been proposed to improve how [[WP:ACDS|discretionary sanctions]] are communicated to editors. This <s>clarification</s> <u>amendment</u> request seeks to bring four of these suggestions to the Arbitration Committee for consideration and implementation.

# '''In {{tl|Ds/alert}}, inform the recipient that they may opt out of receiving future alerts with {{tl|Ds/aware}}.'''
#: Editors who receive discretionary sanctions alerts who do not wish to receive these alerts sometimes do not understand that they have the option to opt out of receiving them. Including this information in the alert template would communicate this option explicitly to the recipient as a courtesy, similar to unsubscribe links in emails.{{pb}}I previously proposed this change at {{slink|WP:DS2021#Comments by community members (Alerts)}}, where it received positive feedback and no opposition. This change was also separately proposed by {{u|Sideswipe9th}} on the [[Template talk:Ds#Suggestion - add Wikilink to Template:Ds/aware into ds/alert?|talk page of the relevant templates]].{{pb}}To implement this change, a sentence would need to be added to [[Template:Ds/alert]], either in a new paragraph with a smaller font size or at the end of the last paragraph. The sentence could be something such as:
#:* {{xt|You may opt out of receiving messages like this one by placing the {{tlx|Ds/aware}} template on your user talk page.}}
#:*: A concise sentence
#:* {{xt|You may opt out of receiving messages like this one by placing the {{tlx|Ds/aware}} template on your user talk page and specifying in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about.}} 
#:*: Reminds the recipient that the {{code|topic_code}} parameter must be set in {{tl|Ds/aware}} for the opt-out to take effect
# '''Accommodate multiple topic areas in a single {{tl|Ds/alert}} template.'''
#: Editors who participate in multiple topic areas covered by discretionary sanctions often receive a series of {{tl|Ds/alert}} messages, one for each topic area. The duplicate text among the multiple messages creates unnecessary reading for the recipients. Adding support for multiple topic areas in a single {{tl|Ds/alert}} notice would keep the communication with alert recipients as concise as possible.{{pb}}I previously proposed this change at {{slink|WP:DS2021#Comments by community members (Alerts)}} and {{slink|WP:DS2021#Comments by community members (Other)}}.{{pb}}To implement this change, [[Template:Ds/alert]] would need be altered to support multiple topic codes and display the corresponding topic areas as a bulleted list. The {{tl|Ds/aware}} template could be used as a reference implementation. To further simplify the alert system, the Arbitration Committee could investigate whether the {{tl|Ds/alert}} template should be combined with the {{tl|Gs/alert}} template, so that multiple topic areas covered by a combination of <s>discretionary sanctions and [[WP:GS|general sanctions]]</s> <u>[[WP:GS#Arbitration Committee sanctions|Arbitration Committee sanctions]] and [[WP:GS#Community sanctions|community sanctions]]</u> could be specified in a single unified alert template.
# '''Accommodate multiple topic areas in a single {{tl|Ds/talk notice}} template.'''
#: Articles that are covered by multiple discretionary sanctions topic areas tend to have a series of {{tl|Ds/talk notice}} banners on their talk pages, one for each topic area. This causes [[banner blindness]] and creates unnecessary reading for talk page participants. As with the previous proposal, adding support for multiple topic areas in a single {{tl|Ds/talk notice}} banner would eliminate this issue.{{pb}}{{u|ProcrastinatingReader}} previously proposed this change at {{slink|WP:DS2021#Comments by community members (Other)}}, where it received positive feedback. At {{slink|Template talk:Ds#Combine Ds/talk notice}}, {{u|Czar}} proposed the same suggestion, and ProcrastinatingReader said that they had proposed this to the Arbitration Committee in 2020 but did not receive a definitive answer.{{pb}}To implement this, [[Template:Ds/talk notice]] would need to be modified to support multiple topic codes and display the corresponding topic areas as a bulleted list. As with the previous proposal, {{tl|Ds/aware}} could be used as a reference implementation, and the Arbitration Committee could investigate whether {{tl|Ds/talk notice}} should be combined with {{tl|Gs/talk notice}} to further simplify these banners.
# '''Add a [[MOS:LS|lead section]] to [[WP:AC/DS]] that summarizes the discretionary sanctions system.'''
#: [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions]] ([[WP:AC/DS]]) is perhaps the most challenging procedure page to read on Wikipedia because it resembles a legal document, adopting a formal tone and starting with a list of definitions. The {{tl|nutshell}} template at the top of the page provides a brief definition, but readers are unable to obtain an overview of discretionary sanctions until they study the entire page. Adding a lead section that summarizes the system would help readers understand at a high level how the system works, how the system affects their editing, and the actions the system makes available to them.
#: The [[WP:DS2021|2021 discretionary sanctions review]] was closed with a summary indicating that a lead section for [[WP:AC/DS]] {{xt|"may be among what is presented to the community for feedback in Phase 2"}}. Since the addition of a lead section would immediately increase the community's understanding of the discretionary sanctions system without changing how the system works, I propose that the drafting of this lead section be expedited and implemented separately from the other changes suggested in the 2021 review, which may take longer to deliberate.

Thank you for your consideration. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
: Immediately after submitting this, I realized that this should have been an amendment request and not a clarification request. I apologize for the inconvenience and will resubmit this request if necessary. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:26, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
:: I've changed the section title to start with "Amendment request". —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:37, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
: {{ping|Atsme}} Thank you for filing the amendment request that led to the creation of {{tl|Ds/aware}} in the first place. Proposal #1 would add a sentence to every discretionary sanctions alert, informing the recipient that they can opt out of future alerts by using {{tl|Ds/aware}}. Proposals #2–4 aren't related to {{tl|Ds/aware}}. I think your suggestion to add a template-free opt-out feature is a good one, but I'm not sure if it's technically possible to implement that on Wikipedia at this time. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:46, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
: {{pb}}{{ping|Izno}} I don't quite understand part of your comment ({{xt|"I don't know that we should allow users to opt out of the alert system"}}), since every editor already has the ability to opt out from receiving {{tl|Ds/alert}} messages by applying the {{tl|Ds/aware}} template on their user talk page. The problem that proposal #1 attempts to address is that many editors are unaware that they can opt out, even after receiving an alert. Are you saying that {{tl|Ds/aware}} should be changed in some way? —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:46, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
: {{pb}} ProcrastinatingReader has [[User talk:Newslinger#ARCA|informed me]] that {{tl|alert}} already combines the functionality of {{tl|Ds/alert}} and {{tl|Gs/alert}}, so I've struck that part from proposal #2. Thank you, ProcrastinatingReader, for implementing this. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 18:48, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
:: On second thought, although [[Module:Sanctions/AlertHelper]] allows {{tl|alert}} to display the correct template – {{tl|Ds/alert}} or {{tl|Gs/alert}} – for a single topic area, it does not yet allow {{tl|alert}} to handle multiple topic areas under a combination of Arbitration Committee sanctions and community sanctions. For example, it would take two alerts to cover both the [[WP:ARBIPA| 	India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan]] topic area and the [[WP:GS/CASTE|South Asian social groups]] topic area, even if {{tl|Ds/alert}} and {{tl|Gs/alert}} were enhanced to accommodate multiple topic areas. For this reason, I've unstruck the relevant part of proposal #2. —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 19:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by Sideswipe9th ===

Though Newslinger and myself have only discussed points 1-3, via the discussion at [[Template talk:Ds]], I do support all four raised here. 

Specifically for point four, I know that when I first became involved in editing in a DS topic area, I found it difficult to understand what exactly the extra restrictions were. The guide at [[WP:ACDS]] opens with a set of definitions, and the information that would be applicable to most editors; the guidance for editors section, is not summarised in a lead or otherwise obviously signposted either on that page, or in the Ds/alert template. 

{{re|Izno}} with respect to [[WP:BOLD]] and requiring an amendment/clarification, there's a content note/warning on the template page that reads {{tq|This template is within the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Committee, as one of its associated enforcement processes. Therefore, you must not make significant changes to the wording or functionality of this template without the committee's consent. Thank you!}} Given the presence of this, neither of us felt it was appropriate for us to make the changes unilaterally. 

One question before I finish, if I need to reply here again, is there a word limit here similar to that of arbitration case requests? [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 18:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

:{{re|Izno}} I can understand hesitation over #4 as ensuring that is worded in both a neutral and accessible manner could take time. However I don't understand why #1 is also an issue, as this would be adding neutral information that this other template exists and what its already existing uses are. I'm curious and wonder if you could elaborate why? [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 23:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by ProcrastinatingReader ===
=== Statement by Czar ===
=== Statement by Atsme ===
I'm not sure if this case is anything like the DS Aware Template discussion that took place on  [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=900493718&diff=prev#Amendment_request:_DS_Awareness_and_alerts May 13, 2019] and passed.  I received this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Atsme&oldid=906524692&diff=prev notice] advising me of same.  I have a permanent template at the top of my UTP, and so do others (admins and editors alike), so if an editor shows up at your page to post a DS notice, it triggers a message saying the editor is already aware.  Is there something different about this case that I'm not understanding?  I'm not all that savvy if it involves programming or technical changes.  If it's about having the ability to totally opt out without needing a notice on our UTP, then count me as a support as long as notice in edit view of DS articles and in the TP header. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 02:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

{{u|Newslinger}} - thx for your suggestions and explanation. Just wanted you to see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Atsme/Archive_32#That'll_teach_you_not_to_tamper_with_the_Holy_MOS this diff].  When an editor attempts to post a DS alert on my TP, it triggers a filter that lists all DS of which I'm aware, if not all (or at least it's supposed to trigger it as the diff demonstrates). [[File:SMirC-mmm.svg|x20px|mm]] [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 05:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
*Some links that may prove helpful:
#[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=906523263#Discretionary_Sanctions:_Awareness_and_alerts:_Motion ArbCom's DS Motion for UTP notice]
#[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ds/alert The alert template] which allows editors to add their own text: <nowiki>{{subst:alert|topic code here – select from list|2=If you have questions, please contact me.|sig=yes}}</nowiki>
#[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ds/aware Lua module] 
:I simply state that I'm aware of all DS in my [[User talk:Atsme#AWARE | UTP DS/AWARE]] notice at the top of my TP. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"><small>Atsme</small></span>]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 05:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Amendments to discretionary sanctions procedure page and templates: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
*

=== Amendments to discretionary sanctions procedure page and templates: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*{{re|Newslinger}} Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I know it's been a while without updates on a semi-stalled DS process -- I in particular apologize for that. <p> Speaking personally: All the changes you suggest sound good to me. I think Change #4 is definitely going to happen{{snd}}the DS draft that was circulated internally last year has one, and my sense is the addition of a lead is pretty popular with the rest of the committee. Changes #1-3 are changes to the templates, which definitely could use some attention. Formally, the templates seem to require ArbCom majorities to change (even though in practice oftentimes arbs/others make BOLD edits). One of my top DS reform priorities is changing that to allow the clerks (in consultation with the committee or without objection from a committee member) to approve changes to the templates and information/documentation pages. I imagine that the clerks will then create a streamlined process to approve improvements that are consistent with the procedure. </p><p> I suppose we could make that change to the procedures ([[Special:Permalink/1077411431|here]] is draft language that would've been part of the overall DS motion) now instead of waiting for the next updates on the DS process, which would probably shave a few months off of that (which once again is mostly my fault). Whether to make this change (which should be fairly uncontroversial) now or wait until a broader package is up to my fellow arbs. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 05:08, 16 March 2022 (UTC)</p>
*:To arbs commenting: would you be open to enacting [[Special:Permalink/1077411431|this motion]] here at this ARCA (rather than the DS reform process)? Doing so will resolve items #1-3 here and reduce the paperwork involved in doing so in the future. Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 08:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*::{{re|Worm That Turned}} How about putting it on [[WP:A/R/M]] and notifying the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions/2021_review/Update_list|DS update list]]? Would that work for you? Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 00:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
*:::I don't know whether I'll bring the motion at A/R/M, but I think in any event this specific ARCA is resolved. If there is no objection, in a day or two I'll direct the clerks to close this ARCA (with the result being that changes #1-3 are approved subject to any discussion about implementation, and change #4 will be considered when the broader DS2021 reform package is brought forth). Best, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 22:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
* Items 2 and 3 at least do look closer to [[WP:BOLD]]-ArbCom-action than to "total reform package", but for all four I don't think a request for amendment is quite the right vehicle, with the general expectation that any changes will be a possibly long discussion (maybe not previous RFC length). --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 05:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Sideswipe9th}} Yes, hence the qualified [[WP:BOLD]]. As in, I'm pretty sure ArbCom would accept/perform changes on 2/3 without too much consideration. 1/4, not so much. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 18:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*::{{U|Sideswipe9th}}, I don't know that we should allow users to opt out of the alert system. If we should let users do so, that requires more change to the procedures than simply adding a template that says you are Always Aware. I am saying I'd like the personal time to read and review both what the community has said on the point and the work that has been done by ArbCom already, since I can personally think of at least one way it changes the dynamics of DS alerting. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 23:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*DS reform remains an ongoing project behind the scenes. It is...a lot of work, but we're hoping to have the next phase out soon. I'll tackle things by number. 1) That sounds reasonable. 2) If someone can write the template for that, I'm sure it would be implemented. 3) Same as 2. 4) I love leads, and luckily one has been drafted on ArbWiki. But based on our other expected changes to DS, I'm not so sure we can expedite it. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 05:18, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*If #1-3 require our stamp of approval, consider mine stamped; I see little reason not to and will elaborate further if necessary. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 08:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*I'm happy to give my stamp of approval on those requests. I also believe I'd be happy to support Kevin's motion - but it's the sort of thing that could have unforeseen consequences, so I'd like that to have a bit more visibility (such as being added in a DS reform stage), especially to people who are good at thinking about these things. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 08:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*1-3 sound good, {{re|L235}} I would support that motion, #4 is something being worked on, as others have said. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 23:46, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
*If this was brought up at ARM I would probably vote for it, but I have a weak preference per Worm to not implement Kevin's motion ahead of a larger DS package as I agree that we want real editor and thought on this before we make changes. If the drafters want to do DS changes in a couple of tranches, well that's reasonable also and I would defer to them. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 01:49, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
{{abot}}