View source for Talk:Language processing in the brain

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== Some review papers editors may find useful ==

copy editing is not one of my strengths, So I thought others who wish to edit this article may find this collection of review paper of some use [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/myncbi/collections/public/1XeZ16qW1yY1A60GhkzwRmj/ Language Processing in the Brain] [[User:Dolfrog|dolfrog]] ([[User talk:Dolfrog|talk]]) 03:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

==Very little information given on brain centers responsible for written language==
This article seems focused almost exclusively on speech processing in the brain to the exclusion of the neurological basis of written language. The article should either be expanded or renamed.  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.121.6.113|64.121.6.113]] ([[User talk:64.121.6.113|talk]]) 02:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Autism Affecting Language Processing in the Brain ==

The disorder of Autism basically impact children at a young age, and most who has the disorder also have a learning disability. Research has also claimed that if a child with autism who are not speaking by the age 4 or 5, most likely will not learn to properly speak and comprehend from then on. <ref>https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/many-nonverbal-children-autism-overcome-severe-language-delays</ref> Langauge is easiest to learn at a young age, but those who have a learning disability due to autism are blocked from the ability to learn a language at a young age. Is it harder for those with a learning disability to learn a language now? If so, how?

Questions that also arises is what factors of autism prevent those with it to have a learning disability, thus some having a language-delay and some not being able to learn a language at?

What factors determine if a child does learn a language after a language-delay and a child not learning a language?  

How does the brain structure people with ALS<ref>http://www.alsa.org/about-als/</ref> compare to someone with autism?

I believe this Wikipedia page should include the numerous disorder which affects language processing in the brain, as there are numerous question and factors of how one brain can or can not comprehend/learn a language.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Toanndo|Toanndo]] ([[User talk:Toanndo#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Toanndo|contribs]]) 03:14, 7 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

{{talk-reflist}}

== No section on visual languages / sign languages ==
This article doesn't include information on sign languages, which would strengthen this article. [[User:Lornaquandt|Lornaquandt]] ([[User talk:Lornaquandt|talk]]) 18:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Recently this statement was added that is related to this talk thread: Language processing can also occur in relation to signed languages or written content. Auditory input is not required for language processing.

This statement is problematic. Although it is true that written languages and sign languages are considered languages, they are not in the same status in the brain as audio-vocal languages. These languages are unnatural, as they both require unique circumstances to occur. Written language takes years to master and learning it is based on utilizing audio-vocal language. Signed language is also problematic as it doesn't occur during normal development, and requires the unique circumstance of having an entirely muted community to occur. It will likely help the page to include signed languages and written languages, but their distinction from the naturally rising audio-vocal languages needs to be presented and established.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 18:32, 6 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

They're not the same "status in the brain"? What evidence supports this view? You're calling sign language "unnatural"? Let's put aside written language, since that is a different form of language processing. How is sign language unnatural? You say it doesn't occur during normal development, and that makes it problematic. It does not require "an entirely muted community" to occur. What does that even mean? Sign language are naturally occurring throughout the world in a diverse array of communities. [https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/american-sign-language How about this link from the NIH which explains what sign languages are?] Even a cursory glance at [[sign languages]] will show that your stated views are not supported by the majority of current linguistic or scientific evidence. Please don't work on this part of the article if this is your viewpoint. You have already been massively overhauling this article in ways that do not conform with Wikipedia editorial standards. Please just leave this part alone. [[User:Lornaquandt|Lornaquandt]] ([[User talk:Lornaquandt|talk]]) 14:45, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

:: Look. you are more than welcome to write a section on the other aspects of language processing in the brain. I think there should be a section on the visual word form area(VWFA) (although it already has its own wiki page) and its connections with the auditory dorsal and ventral streams. These references are good reviews discussing the subject: Jobard et al., 2003; Bolger et al., 2005; Spitsyna et al., 2006; Brambati et al., 2009. How sign language is processed in the brain is a bit more mysterious despite ample research on the gestural theory, and visual mimicry. But it appears to be in connection to areas MT, MST and EBA with the auditory dorsal stream (the so called ventral-dorsal stream, which is separate from the traditional dorsal-dorsal stream; Binkofsky and Bixbaum, 2013). In regard to your argument that iconic and written languages have the same neuroanatomical standing as audio-vocal languages, what I was trying to communicate is that if healthy children grow up in a natural environment they begin to communicate with their voices. This happens globally and in all societies. There needs to be unqie circumstances such as all muted community for people to start communicating with hand gestures, instead of voices. Naturally, healthy people without guidance use their voices for communication. Therefore, audio-vocal languages are the preferred course for communication. Hence, more natural, and the route for audio-vocal communication is preferred. But, as I said before, you are welcome to write these sections. Otherwise, I'll write them when I get the chance  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 20:55, 10 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Recent edits==
There's some back forth happening recently. User KarinaCors has made changes based on their understanding of scientific consensus on a "defunct theory", but has not explained what that theory is or why it is defunct. Perhaps a discussion on the talk page would be more helpful than making substantive changes on the page itself. [[User:Lornaquandt|Lornaquandt]] ([[User talk:Lornaquandt|talk]]) 18:56, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

: Regarding the defunct status of the Wernicke-Lichtheim-Geschwind model, please read references 10-16 in the article. It has been acknowledged for about 20 years now that the concept of Wernicke's area was based on misunderstandings of analysis of brain damaged patients, and is not suuported by MRI research. This has been acknowledged by leading leaders in the field of language processing in the brain, such as Nina Dronkers, Marsel Mesulam, Josef Rauschecker, David Poeppel and Gregory Hickok.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 13:16, 29 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Recent changes seem to add substantial information about sound processing and perception rather than information about how the language processing happens. Sections such as "sound localization," "guidance of eye movements," and "integration of locations with auditory objects" are not directly relevant to language so much as how people perceive sound and integrate stimuli. I see two options here: (1) relocate this information to a more appropriate article or (2) redesign a section to discuss how stimuli perception (auditory, visual, tactile) relates to language processing.[[User:Bkaps13|Bkaps13]] ([[User talk:Bkaps13|talk]]) 14:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

: Sections 'sound localization', 'guidance of eye movements' and 'integration of locations with auditory objects' were removed from this article. Sections that were accidentally erased 'speech production', 'vocal mimicry' and 'monitoring of speech' were recreated.[[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor|talk]]) 18:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

{{ping|KarinaCor}} Two new articles, [[Auditory dorsal stream]] and [[Auditory ventral stream]] were created based on material from this article.  I also cross linked this article with the two new articles.  It is redundant to have exactly the same material in both the parent and daughter articles.  That is why I removed the material in the parent article that was copied to the daughter articles. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:07, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:Ok. But now the current page makes no sense. You took out the parts discussing language processing in the brain.[[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor|talk]]) 19:14, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:: Perhaps it would make sense to remerge and restore the redirects from [[Auditory dorsal stream]] and [[Auditory ventral stream]] back to this article. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:19, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:::But the pages were not identical. Per requests of editors here, the auditory dorsal stream page focuses also on non-linguistic functions, such as sound localization. The current page just focuses on the language parts of the auditory dorsal stream. I see the problem you identify, but currently the page has into and conclusion and no content.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 19:25, 29 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::: Big chucks were identical and clearly copy and pasted from the parent into the daughter articles. Is there any way we can remove the redundancy? [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:30, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::Maybe its because I'm new here but I don't truly understand what is the problem. Between related topics there are bound to be overlapping sections. Seems natural to me and not something to worry about. Currently, people who are curious about language processing in the brain have no access to it through wikipedia. If it is necessary then a solution would be to remove the auditory ventral stream section and auditory dorsal stream section, and revert back the language processing in the brain section to its latest version.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 19:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{outdent}}
This subject area is way out of my area of expertise so I am having difficulty understanding how LP, ADS, and AVS relate to each other.  Is it correct that the ADS is primarily involved in language processing and the AVS sound processing?  And that the AVS is a prerequisite for ADS? So why not move out the mechanistic details of ADS and AVS to the respective daughter articles and briefly summarize mechanism in the parent article? [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:49, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Or why not revert to this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Language_processing_in_the_brain&oldid=871204505 version] and restore the redirects from ADS and AVS to this article.  I really do not see the problem of having sound processing in this article as it is a prerequisite for language processing. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

: I think the core of confusion is that for some reason a part of the ADS discussing speech production was erased. If to revert then to the latest version (the one discussing speech production)  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 20:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:: Or yet another idea.  Why not reduce the number of articles from three to two.  LP/ADS and SP/AVS?  This would seem to be a lot cleaner. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 20:10, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
::: I'm not sure how to revert. The article should be changed to this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Language_processing_in_the_brain&direction=next&oldid=871224537. Then the auditory ventral stream article should be removed.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 20:14, 29 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::  There is very little unique material in the either of the daughter articles compared to the version of this article that you want to revert back to.  Hence I propose that the redirect to both [[Auditory dorsal stream]] and [[Auditory ventral stream]] back to this article as I originally proposed.  Is that OK? [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 20:36, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
:::: There is virtually no material in AVS that is not contained in this article, hence I have redirected it to this article. Most of the ADS article contents is also found in this article, with the exception of (1) Sound localization, (2) Guidance of eye movements, nad (3) Integration of locations with auditory objects. Not sure how to handle this. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 21:44, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

: My concern is that sound processing is not always a prerequisite for language processing. It is a prerequisite for spoken language but signed languages are processed in much the same way in the brain. Therefore, it is skewed to put in only one sensory system that can perceive linguistic stimuli and not others. [[User:Bkaps13|Bkaps13]] ([[User talk:Bkaps13|talk]]) 16:48, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

:: Language processing includes verbal, written, and signed. Sound processing is a prerequisite for verbal language processing so it is within the scope of this article. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 10:13, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

::: Ok then the next step would be to add in equal descriptions of visual processing and reading processing to discuss other ways linguistic stimuli can be perceived and processed. [[User:Bkaps13|Bkaps13]] ([[User talk:Bkaps13|talk]]) 01:18, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

::: Sure, sound processing could be included in this article. But sound processing is a requisite for spoken language processing, it is not the only way to access linguistic content. As I noted many months ago, there is still no mention of sign language and currently there is little mention of written language. This article is strangely skewed to auditory processing. For example, why should there be a section on "non-linguistic function of the auditory system" in an article about language? That content belongs elsewhere. This article should contain information about *language* in all of its forms; not simply hash out the entirety of the auditory processing stream. [[User:Lornaquandt|Lornaquandt]] ([[User talk:Lornaquandt|talk]]) 19:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

== Division of the two streams ==
I believe the following comment is not scientifically sound "The division of the two streams first occurs in the auditory nerve where the anterior branch enters the anterior cochlear nucleus in the brainstem which gives rise to the auditory ventral stream. The posterior branch enters the dorsal and posteroventral cochlear nucleus to give rise to the auditory dorsal stream.[7]:8". The posterior cochlear nerve has a structure very similar to the cerebellum and is speculated to participate in moving the ears towards sounds in a few species. The anterior cochlear nucleus is classically considered the first relay of all sounds. Therefore claiming that the separation into auditory ventral and dorsal stream in the context of the current article is misleading. The inferior colliculus and medial geniculate also have two sections refered as core and belt, but these neither seem related to the auditory dorsal and ventral streams. Based on Griffiths and Warren, the planum temporale (pSTG) is the hub that separates into auditory dorsal and ventral stream. Based on Poliva (2015) the separation is even earlier in the primary auditory cortex. Claiming of separation at the auditory nerve requires extraordinary evidence, which is not cited with the statement.<ref name="pmid12079762">{{cite journal | vauthors = Griffiths TD, Warren JD | title = The planum temporale as a computational hub | journal = Trends in Neurosciences | volume = 25 | issue = 7 | pages = 348–53 | date = July 2002 | pmid = 12079762 | doi = | department = review }}</ref><ref name="pmid26413744">{{cite journal | vauthors = Poliva O, Bestelmeyer PE, Hall M, Bultitude JH, Koller K, Rafal RD | title = Functional Mapping of the Human Auditory Cortex: fMRI Investigation of a Patient with Auditory Agnosia from Trauma to the Inferior Colliculus | journal = Cognitive and Behavioral Neurology : Official Journal of the Society for Behavioral and Cognitive Neurology | volume = 28 | issue = 3 | pages = 160–80 | date = September 2015 | pmid = 26413744 | doi = 10.1097/WNN.0000000000000072 | department = primary }}</ref><!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KarinaCor|contribs]]) 18:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{talk-reflist}}
: The central part of your argument is
:# The anterior cochlear nucleus is classically considered the first relay of all sounds.
:# Therefore claiming that the separation into auditory ventral and dorsal stream in the context of the current article is misleading.
: Logically how does #2 follow from #1?  I am not getting it.  Is #1 even correct?  Many classic theories have later been proven to be incorrect.
: What I added to the article was the following:
:: The division of the two streams first occurs in the [[auditory nerve]] where the anterior branch enters the anterior [[cochlear nucleus]] in the brainstem which gives rise to the auditory ventral stream.  The posterior branch enters the dorsal and posteroventral cochlear nucleus to give rise to the auditory dorsal stream.<ref name="pmid25726260">{{cite book | vauthors = Pickles JO | chapter = Chapter 1: Auditory pathways: anatomy and physiology | veditors = Aminoff MJ, Boller F, Swaab DF | title = Handbook of Clinical Neurology | volume = 129 | issue = | pages = 3–25 | date = 2015 | pmid = 25726260 | doi = 10.1016/B978-0-444-62630-1.00001-9 | isbn = 978-0-444-62630-1 | department = review }}</ref>{{rp|8}}
{{talk-reflist}}
: Did you read the source (Pickles 2015) supplied?  This source is secondary and therefore it would take extraordinary evidence (at least one other secondary source) to refute it. The source you provide above does not directly refute it. It should also be noted that Pickles (2015) is much more recent that Griffiths and Warren (2002).  The relevant passage in Pickles is:
:: '''The division into the two pathways first occurs in the auditory nerve'''. Each auditory nerve fiber branches on entering the brainstem, to give rise to the anterior and posterior branches of the nerve. The anterior branch innervates the anterior cochlear nucleus, and gives rise to the ventral, sound-localizing, auditory stream of the brainstem. The posterior branch innervates the dorsal cochlear nucleus (DCN), and, in passing, the posteroven- tral cochlear nucleus (PVCN), to give rise to the dorsal auditory stream of the brainstem, involved in complex stimulus analysis (Fig. 1.6). There are therefore three divisions of the cochlear nucleus, one, the anteroventral cochlear nucleus (AVCN), being part of the ventral stream of the brainstem, and the other two, the PVCN and DCN, part of the dorsal stream of the brainstem. The PVCN also makes some contribution to the ventral auditory stream.
: There are two separate issues: (1) Is Pickles correct? (2) is my interpretation of Pickles correct?  If not #1, you need to provide direct evidence from at least one other reliable secondary source to refute Pickles.  If my interpretation of Pickles is not corect, please suggest a better interpretation. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:50, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
:: Ok, now I see why you put it here. Yes, the dorsal cochlear nucleus does participate in sound localization (Pickles is correct). However, because pinna movement results with temporary inhibition on neurons in the dorsal cochlear nucleus and the nucleus is enlarged in animals with a moving pinna such as dogs and cats (and almost vestigial in humans) we assume a role in aiming ears towards sounds. This makes sense as the dorsal cochlear nucleus appears in anatomy as an early version of the cerebellum, which also functions in sensory-motor coordination. The wiki page for the dorsal cochlear nucleus is rather good and with citations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsal_cochlear_nucleus. I can also see the source of the confusion. It is without a doubt that the brainstem auditory areas participate in sound localization, and it is therefore not clear why we have a separate pathway for sound localization in the cortex. The role of the inferior colliculus in sound localization is likely there to influence the superior colliculus for directing attention to a location in space. On the other hand, the dorsal auditory stream in the cortes likely exists to create the conscious experience that sound arrives from a location, and possibly to create a map of the locations of sounds. If we want to claim that the pathway for sound localization is separate from other auditory processing throughout the enitrety of the auditory system (which is not the topic of the article), we need to show separation into the two streams in the inferior colliculus and medial geniculate, which has not so far been established. However, to keep our eye on the ball we need to remember that this conversation although interesting have little to do with language  [[User:KarinaCor|KarinaCor]] ([[User talk:KarinaCor|talk]]) 21:35, 6 December 2018 (UTC)