View source for Talk:Ko of Parhae/Archive 1


==Request for Romanization==
I need help with the romanization.  Also, if anyone wants to tackle it, there's a lot more information at [http://www.unitedcn.com/03ZHMJ/14TANG/new_page_24.htm ] for the Chinese-literate. [[User:Mgmei|Mgmei]] 19:29, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

== rename to Go of Balhae? ==

per [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)]], how about naming this article Go of Balhae, for consistency. it's not required, & redirects will cover both, but since dae joyoung is not exactly a common household english name, might as go with the consistent naming, imho. [[User:Appleby|Appleby]] 00:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

== "Etymology" of Qiqi Zhongxiang  and relationship with Dae Jung-sang==
A korean source quotes that the [[Sinicized]] 乞乞 of the autochtone word "Qiqi" means "Great" ([[Hangul]] :대 [[Hanja]]/[[Hanzi]] :大)

한자 표시의 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’은 그 훈(訓)이 아니라, 그 발음을 봐야 한다.<br>
(...)<br>
대(大)[da, 돋은]= [qiqi, 치치](乞乞)= ‘첫 (솟은)’이어야 한다. 

(...)<br>
더구나 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’ 말갈족 성씨이고, ‘대(大)’는 조선족 성씨이다

Conclusion : <br>
Qiqi Zhongxiang also know as Dae Jung-sang are both correct because the first one is the Chinese pronouciation of the word Qiqi written in the Chinese Old records in Classical Chinese while the second one prouve us that the autochtone language do not belong to Chinese language family.

Da Zhongxiang is just a sinicized word <br>
and Geolgeol is not really considered as a Korean name. 

Sources :<br>
http://www.arirang-world.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12305.html<br>
http://www.sungyoung.net/story/daijoyoung.html<br><small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlee|Whlee]] ([[User talk:Whlee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlee|contribs]]) 17:40, 3 April 2007 Whlee</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
===="乞乞" was probably Old Korean or at least cognate with the Korean word.====
The word “乞乞” may have been read either in goguryeonized reading or in Middle Chinese reading for Hanzi.

Let’s look at the Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. The personal name of the King Micheon of Goguryeo was 乙弗 (a transcription into Hanzi) or 乙弗利 (a variant transcription into Hanzi). The variation of the personal name of the Goguryeo king shows that the consonant-final sound of the character “弗” was not “T” but “L or R”. This is one of the some examples which proves that Sino-Korean reading is close to Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. For reference, “乞乞” in Sino-Korean pronunciation is [k{{IPA|ʌ}}lk{{IPA|ʌ}}l]

So, I postulate that Goguryeo reading for the character “乞” was pronounced [k+(vowel)+l]. As for the Middle Chinese reading, considering the diverse reconstructions of the reading by linguists, I postulate that the Middle Chinese pronunciation for it was [k+(vowel)+t].

And the Korean native reading for “大” is exactly [k{{IPA|ʰɯ}}l]. Possibly [k+(vowel)+l] or  [k+(vowel)+t] was Old Korean or at least cognate with the Korean word. To the contrary, Manchu word for “大” is [amba], hardly to imagine to be cognate with above mentioned reading.
After having become the royal family of Balhae, the family of Dae Jo-yeong felt the need to create a surname which could represent their dynasty diplomatically to the neighboring countries. It is easy to imagine that their native surname meaning “great” was turned into “大” which was equivalent in meaning to “乞”

It could be a good example to study how native Korean surnames have changed into Chinese-like surnames.<br>
[[User:Jagello|Jagello]] ([[User talk:Jagello|talk]]) 09:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

==Article needs gramatical changes==

It's very messy and hard to understand...someone should go over the article and correct the bad english...

==Regarding the term "別種"==

The term 別種, which is obsolete and also ambiguous, was used in old Chinese texts tracing the origins (族源) of foreign nations or tribes.
So in order to interpret the real meaning of the term 別種, it's necessary to examine the usage of the term 別種 in other passages from the Jiutangshu (舊唐書) focusing on the ethnology.

<舊唐書><br>
高麗(Goguryeo)者出者夫餘(Buyeo)地別種也<br> 
日本(Japan)國者倭(wa)國之別種也 

If we translate the term 別種 from its context, it should mean "an offshoot nation" having parted from the origin nation.
But as for Dae Joyeong who was not a nation but the founder of Balhae, it would be better to translate the character 種 to "a stock" than a nation or a tribe.
[[User:Jagello|Jagello]] 16:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

==Sockpuppeter Azukimonaka's block evasions in 2009==
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*Since {{user21|Azukimonaka}}, ''indefinitely blocked'' sockpuppeter, has kept evading his block sanction with sock accounts and IPs such as {{user13|青鬼よし}} this time here ''again'', the header and box are added to differentiate other discussions from his comments instead of blanking per [[WP:BAN]]. See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Azukimonaka|WP:SPI/Azukimonaka]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppet investigations/Azukimonaka|its chronicle]]. --[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 23:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
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===Regarding the term "朝貢"===
To [[User:Caspian blue|User:Caspian blue]], It is written "自高氏以來、朝貢不絶" in the quoted source "類聚國史". The term of the [[:zh:zh|朝貢]] is a meaning of "[[tribute|pay tribute]]". [http://dict.cn/en/search/][http://tool.huoche.com/r_ci_eb1e2d71fc8d2e0f0d032fe1406f0e1a] If you insist that this translation is not correct, we will discuss it on the page of [[Talk:Tribute]]. --[[User:青鬼よし|青鬼よし]] ([[User talk:青鬼よし|talk]]) 04:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
:See [[Talk:Go of Balhae#Japanese primary source presented by 青鬼よし]]. --[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 10:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

=== Japanese primary source presented by 青鬼よし ===

I removed the whole dubious primary source inserted by {{user|青鬼よし}}. I guess this is another instance on misuse of primary sources that I've faced from many Japanese editors from [[2ch]] including the notorious block-evading sockpuppeter {{userblock|Azukimonaka}}'s disruption at [[Silla]], [[Baekje]], [[History of Korea]], [[Kofun period]], [[History of Japan]] and many others. (e.g. [[Talk:History of Japan/Archive 3#Block-evading Sockpuppeter User:Azukimonaka's complaints]]) The dubious Japanese source does not have any link nor following secondary or academic source in which which scholar insists for the fringe view. Moreover, the receiver of tribute is not also specified in the primary source, so precise translation is required. I researched on the subject, and found out the general scholarship agree that the Japanese insistence of Balhae being a Japanese tributary status is a "purely Japanese fantasy and delusion" or "preposterously" to justify the Japanese invasions to Korea and Manchuria during the early 20th century (those expressions are not mine, but scholars'). Since 青鬼よし is responsible for keeping inserting the fringe theory by engaging in edit warring, he should precisely present English translation word by word with links, and who claims the theory with the primary source. If he successfully presents them, I will of course give the aforementioned scholar's assessments. So the ball is up to 青鬼よし.

{{quote|According to history book "類聚國史" written in Japan in the ninth century, In [[713]] This country was granted imperial investiture to by China. the ruling class of Balhae consisted mostly of former citizens of Goguryeo, while the lower class was largely made up of the [[Mohe]]. The [[tribute|pay tribute]] to Japan was continued, <ref>卷四逸文（『類聚國史』一九三渤海) 和銅六年、受唐冊立其國。延袤二千里、無州県館驛、處々有村里。皆靺鞨部落。其百姓者、靺鞨多、土人少。皆以土人爲村長。大村曰都督、次曰刺史。其下百姓皆曰首領。土地極寒、不宜水田。俗頗知書。自高氏以來、[[:zh:zh|朝貢]]不絶。</ref> Balhae declared itself the successor to Goguryeo, and sometimes called itself Goryeo-guk (state of Goguryeo).|inserted by [[User:青鬼よし]]}}

--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 10:26, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
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==References==
{{reflist}}

Also, don't use these on talk pages.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span class="texhtml" style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;">Llywelyn<span style="color:gold;">II</span></span>]] 14:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

==[[WP:RS]]==
Well, sucks to remove cited material from an article but, as it stands, there's no way "east" is an accurate translation of Go's state's name. That was what the earlier Jin's name meant and Go's state might have intended to simply be a variant form of that name but, without that being explicitly mentioned, it seems more likely the author just confused 辰 and 震. See the name section at [[Balhae]].&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span class="texhtml" style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;">Llywelyn<span style="color:gold;">II</span></span>]] 14:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* [[commons:File:A modern portrait of Dae Joyeong.jpg|A modern portrait of Dae Joyeong.jpg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy | 2019-04-28T03:21:49.646292 | A modern portrait of Dae Joyeong.jpg -->
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 03:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

== Pro-Korean distortion ==

The article is very distorted in favor of the Korean version of the origin and nationality of this person. Non-historical foundation. Links to unreliable sources are given as links. The article needs to be fully reworked. [[User:Ulianurlanova|Ulianurlanova]] ([[User talk:Ulianurlanova|talk]]) 15:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)