View source for Talk:JavaScript/Archive 6

{{aan}}

== edit warring about JS being classified as an interpreted language ==

The last few days have seen some edit warring here about JS being classified as an [[Interpreter (computing)|interpreted]] language. I'm surprised there is disagreement on this point. As I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=JavaScript&diff=942256039&oldid=942255815 noted] yesterday, [[just-in-time compilation]] is really an optimization of interpretation.

JIT has been in use for over a decade, and client-side JS code is still downloaded from servers as human-readable source that has to be converted into machine code by the browser's JS engine. That's conversion at runtime, i.e. interpretation. The fact that JIT makes it considerably faster, on average, has been a really nice optimization; but googleapis.com, cloudflare.com, etc. are still serving up jQuery in source form. That hasn't changed.

I'd like to get consensus on this point here. I skimmed the talk archives and didn't see any threads on this particular point. Perhaps there are other ways of classifying this that I'm unaware of. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 16:20, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

:I spent some time googling this issue, and now I better understand that this has been a lingering source of confusion for some people, including developers. The labels "interpreted" and "compiled" were established by the 1970s, decades before hardware was powerful enough for ideas like JIT to become a practical reality. Back then there was a clear separation of languages compiled by a developer, e.g. Fortran and C, and delivered as an executable binary, from others like Lisp and Scheme that were always delivered as source. So that's why my own concept of "interpreted" focuses on the mechanism of delivery. (As do others, like [http://voidcanvas.com/is-javascript-really-interpreted-or-compiled-language/ here].)

:Since this is not such a cut-and-dry classification, I removed the "interpreted" label from the lede sentence of the article. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 15:40, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

== Mistake in "Weakly typed" table ==

The "Quirks" table contains a mistake not supported by either of the two cited references. Namely, the result of ''[] + {}'' is not ''{}'' but rather '' '[object Object]' '' (a string). This can also be verified by trying it in a modern REPL. When I tried to correct this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=JavaScript&diff=prev&oldid=943778920 the edit] was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=JavaScript&oldid=prev&diff=943788737 rejected]. What can I do better in the future?

--[[User:Lagewi|Lagewi]] ([[User talk:Lagewi|talk]]) 23:20, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

:I tested it in the Chrome Console (Ctrl Shift I) and it turns out to be correct. It seems like the [] is an empty string, and {} is "[Object object]" - i've updated the table. (Link for testing: [https://js.do/code/428766 https://js.do/code/428766])
:(As for what you should've done, maybe use the edit summary to explain?) [[User:AltoStev|<span style='color: orange;'><b>&nbsp;AltoStev</b></span>]] [[User Talk:AltoStev|<sup><span style='color: #448cff'><b>Talk</b></span></sup>]] 00:00, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
::Edit: Oops, it seems like you've already made the change. Nevermind[[User:AltoStev|<span style='color: orange;'><b>&nbsp;AltoStev</b></span>]] [[User Talk:AltoStev|<sup><span style='color: #448cff'><b>Talk</b></span></sup>]] 00:04, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

== Paragraph 3 ==

JS is a programming language that conforms to the ECMAScript specification.

(Different web browsers and also Node) each have different implementations of ECMAScript, where each implementation is a variant of JavaScript.

To conform to the ECMAScript specification, (reference: https://tc39.es/ecma262/#sec-conformance), an implementation must provide all of the features of ECMAScript, but can also ''"provide additional types, values, objects, properties, and functions beyond those described in [the] specification"''

Paragraph 3 says: "However, the language itself does not include any [[input/output]] (I/O), such as [[Computer network|networking]], [[Data storage|storage]], or [[Computer graphics|graphics]] facilities, as the host environment (usually a web browser) provides those APIs."

EMCAScript is the language that doesn't define any APIs for such, but browsers ''add'' functionality onto that as their version of JavaScript. <br> ''JavaScript includes the functionality'', "the language itself" is actually ECMAScript, but the sentence in paragraph 3 is misleading and refers to JS instead of ECMAScript.
[[User:AltoStev|<span style='color: orange;'><b>&nbsp;AltoStev</b></span>]] [[User Talk:AltoStev|<sup><span style='color: #448cff'><b>Talk</b></span></sup>]] 00:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

:I just rewrote it as a separate paragraph:
:"The ECMAScript standard does not include any input/output (I/O), such as networking, storage, or graphics facilities. In practice, the web browser or other runtime system provides JavaScript APIs for I/O."
:-[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 22:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

== Better Example than Animations ==

CSS3, SASS, SCSS, and LESS can all animate content without scripts. I think a better example should be provided so that people better understand what these languages can do. I.e "make a popup." [[User:DukeOfGrammar|DukeOfGrammar]] ([[User talk:DukeOfGrammar|talk]]) 19:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
:I don't see this as a problem. Just because there's an alternate way to do page animations, doesn't invalidate the example of JS doing it. But good suggestion about pop-ups. I added that to the list. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 17:12, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

== Syntax - variadic function demonstration ==

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Functions/arguments says "If you're writing ES6 compatible code, then [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Functions/rest_parameters rest parameters] should be preferred." So maybe replace or add a rest param example. [[User:AltoStev|<span style='color: orange;'><b>&nbsp;AltoStev</b></span>]] [[User Talk:AltoStev|<sup><span style='color: #448cff'><b>Talk</b></span></sup>]] 12:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
: '''oppose''' - {{re|AltoStev}} These tips aren't mandatory. It just makes easier to access a fraction of elements inside arguments. --<span style="font-size: small" >[[User:Alexander_Davronov|<span style='color:#a8a8a8'>AXO</span><span style="color:#000">NOV</span>]] [[User talk:Alexander_Davronov|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Alexander_Davronov|⚑]]</span> 10:09, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

==JAVA elimination==
I suggest to revert the following edits mentioning JAVA. These were illegally removed by {{u|Pmffl}}. It should be mentioned per [[WP:LEAD]].
{{tqb|
* {{diff2|1022814822|1022811905|17:04, May 12, 2021}} - ''«‎Creation at Netscape:  wording»''
* <s>{{diff2|1022811905|1022655311|16:42, May 12, 2021}} - ''«Restored revision 1022595329 by ClueBot NG talk): Full vandal revert»''</s>
* {{diff2|1017468668|1017460356|22:49, April 12, 2021}} - ''«remove Java comparison from lede - covered in the hat, the history, and a dedicated section»''
* <s>{{diff2|1017343784|1017339785|07:26, April 12, 2021}} - ''«Undid revision 1017339785 by 87.55.214.141 talk) junk edit - wrong section and Node already covered»''</s>}}
--<span style="font-size: small" >[[User:Alexander_Davronov|<span style='color:#a8a8a8'>AXO</span><span style="color:#000">NOV</span>]] [[User talk:Alexander_Davronov|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Alexander_Davronov|⚑]]</span> 19:26, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

:What do you mean by 'illegally removed'? Those are totally normal edits. One of them is restoring half a sentence that was deleted by an IP vandal. - [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 23:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
::{{re|MrOllie}} See [[MOS:INTRO#summarize]]. The JAVA is discussed in the body. No reason to remove it from lead. <span style="font-size: small" >[[User:Alexander_Davronov|<span style='color:#a8a8a8'>AXO</span><span style="color:#000">NOV</span>]] [[User talk:Alexander_Davronov|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Alexander_Davronov|⚑]]</span> 08:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
:::There are valid reasons to remove it, as I stated in my edit comment. Two more: the body of the [[Java (programming language)|Java]] article doesn't even mention JS at all, and it's best to not bloat the lede of this article. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 12:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
:::: I'd strongly argue that it belongs in the lede. It's a frequent source of confusion to people unfamiliar with the languages, and its prominently mentioned in the [[Mozilla Developer Network]] page on Javascript [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/About_JavaScript here]. One of the most popular Javascript books "Eloquent Javascript," also mentions it in the second paragraph of the into [https://eloquentjavascript.net/00_intro.html here]. <b>[[User:Ohnoitsjamie|OhNo<span style="color: #D47C14;">itsJamie</span>]] [[User talk:Ohnoitsjamie|<sup>Talk</sup>]]</b> 17:43, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::I think the hatnote alone is probably good enough, as it is now it seems a bit redundant. - [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 18:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Ohnoitsjamie}} It's fair point to mention Java. We have to follow [[WP:INTRO]] anyway. And moreover, there is a whole website devoted to JAVASCRIPT IS NOT A JAVA[http://javascriptisnotjava.com/]. To say nothing of the books: [https://www.google.ru/books/edition/Modern_JavaScript/ExJ9_sor87QC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=javascript+IS+NOT+java&pg=PA17&printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.ru/books/edition/JavaScript/vJGlu9t9LNYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=javascript+IS+NOT+java&pg=PA2&printsec=frontcover] <span style="font-size: small" >[[User:Alexander_Davronov|<span style='color:#a8a8a8'>AXO</span><span style="color:#000">NOV</span>]] [[User talk:Alexander_Davronov|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Alexander_Davronov|⚑]]</span> 18:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

== Use semi-official logo as infobox icon ==

The infobox currently shows pure javascript code. I feel this is confusing to users who don't understand JavaScript or programming in general. Currently, the infobox also links as comment back to a 2013 talk thread with 2 people agreeing to remove the icon. I feel that now, this logo is way more standard and universal than ever.
[[File:JavaScript-logo.png|thumb|Semi-official logo]]  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Moo12101|Moo12101]] ([[User talk:Moo12101#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Moo12101|contribs]]) 05:54, 11 March 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Apologies for the incredibly late reply, but I 100% agree with you, it is almost universally accepted and recognized. If there aren't any objections I'll go ahead and switch it. ~ [[File:Buffalo Nickel 1913 Type 1 Obverse.png|18px|link=User:Eejit43]] [[User:Eejit43|<b style="color:#f7eda1;background-color:#364add;padding:2q;border-radius:3q">Eejit43</b>]] ([[User talk:Eejit43|talk]]) 03:48, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
::Never mind, seems like a consensus was made in 2015 regarding this: [[Talk:JavaScript/Archive 5#Why is the unofficial logo present?]]
::Might not be a bad idea to discuss this further, however, as the acceptance of the logo has changed since then.
::If not, the icon should definitely be improved, the example code is quite unhelpful, and the usage of HTML just serves to be confusing. ~ [[File:Buffalo Nickel 1913 Type 1 Obverse.png|18px|link=User:Eejit43]] [[User:Eejit43|<b style="color:#f7eda1;background-color:#364add;padding:2q;border-radius:3q">Eejit43</b>]] ([[User talk:Eejit43|talk]]) 03:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
For post related to Javascript JSON array refer.
https://astrophile0.space/javascript-json-array/  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Utka05|Utka05]] ([[User talk:Utka05#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Utka05|contribs]]) 09:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Misleading infobox caption ==

Current revision as of writing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=JavaScript&oldid=1084871476]

The caption of the infobox image currently states "Screenshot of JavaScript source code" while the image definitely shows "JavaScript source code ''embedded'' in HTML".

[[Special:Contributions/172.218.5.205|172.218.5.205]] ([[User talk:172.218.5.205|talk]]) 04:59, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

== Syntax - "In HTML documents..." example ==

The example given for output in HTML documents previously said "In HTML documents, this program is required for an output", I changed this to (the awkwardly worded) "In HTML documents, a program like this is required for an output" so it no longer sounds like it would require this exact code, but the example still seems unclear and not well explained. In particular, the <code>document.querySelector()</code> examples at the end are presented as though they're part of the "Hello, World!" equivalent, but as far as I can tell they're not? [[User:AKiwiDeerPin|AKiwiDeerPin]] ([[User talk:AKiwiDeerPin|talk]]) 10:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

== What is this ==

??? [[Special:Contributions/96.64.125.69|96.64.125.69]] ([[User talk:96.64.125.69|talk]]) 18:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

:Do you have a specific question regarding this talk page or JavaScript itself? If the latter I'd suggest reading the article... ~ [[File:Buffalo Nickel 1913 Type 1 Obverse.png|18px|link=User:Eejit43]] [[User:Eejit43|<b style="color:#f7eda1;background-color:#364add;padding:2q;border-radius:3q">Eejit43</b>]] ([[User talk:Eejit43|talk]]) 03:02, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

== Microsoft did not reverse-engineer javascript ==

In History/Adoption by Microsoft, we can read that "Microsoft did reverse-engineer javascript". As netscape source code was available, it cannot be true, as per the definition of "reverse engineering" of wikipedia. Having the source code of a language is not at all doing so  "with very little (if any) insight into exactly how it does so". [[Special:Contributions/2A01:CB14:601:A00:5B8F:DF2:C3E0:199E|2A01:CB14:601:A00:5B8F:DF2:C3E0:199E]] ([[User talk:2A01:CB14:601:A00:5B8F:DF2:C3E0:199E|talk]]) 22:03, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

:Valid point. I removed that term in that section. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 19:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2023 ==

{{edit semi-protected|JavaScript|answered=yes}}
I have noticed some errors or mistakes in the article JavaScript and I want to correct them so I am requesting to get editing Access. [[User:Raja Abdul Rehman|Raja Abdul Rehman]] ([[User talk:Raja Abdul Rehman|talk]]) 09:25, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' this is not the right page to [[Wikipedia:Requests for permissions|request]] additional [[Wikipedia:User access levels|user rights]]. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|an account]], you can wait until you are [[Wikipedia:User access levels#Autoconfirmed and confirmed users|autoconfirmed]] and edit the page yourself.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 09:31, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2023 ==

{{edit semi-protected|JavaScript|answered=yes}}
'''This line:''' document.querySelectorAll('.multiple'); // Returns an Array of all elements with the "multiple" class
'''Should be:''' document.querySelectorAll('.multiple'); // Returns an Array-like NodeList of all elements with the "multiple" class [[Special:Contributions/108.28.68.152|108.28.68.152]] ([[User talk:108.28.68.152|talk]]) 00:16, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> MSDN agrees with you<ref>{{cite web |title=Document: querySelectorAll() method - Web APIs {{!}} MDN |url=https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/querySelectorAll |website=developer.mozilla.org |access-date=29 June 2023 |date=7 April 2023}}</ref> Change made, thanks! [[User:TartarTorte|<b style="color: #ea5a5a;">Tartar</b>]][[User talk:TartarTorte|<b>Torte</b>]] 15:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
{{rlt}}

== Server side usage ==

The current language, "JavaScript engines were originally used only in web browsers, but are now core components of some servers and a variety of applications," is misleading. JavaScript was almost immediately used in server-side applications with the introduction of LiveWire as an extension of Netscape Enterprise Server in 1996. [[User:Bob.Devereux|Bob.Devereux]] ([[User talk:Bob.Devereux|talk]]) 12:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

:The lede fine the way it is. As stated in the Other usage section: "Initial attempts at promoting server-side JavaScript usage were Netscape Enterprise Server and Microsoft's Internet Information Services, but they were small niches. Server-side usage eventually started to grow in the late 2000s, with the creation of Node.js and other approaches." And "originally" was indeed the Navigator browser. So no changes needed. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 01:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

== new Criticism section? ==

As part of my spate of recent activity on this article, I archived the threads here, and in doing so came across [[Talk:JavaScript/Archive 5#No "criticism" section?|an interesting old one]]. That, and the Eich quote I just added to the History section, reminded me of the [http://oitofelix.github.io/gnu-philosophy/homepage/manual/html_node/The-JavaScript-Trap.html "Obfuscript" criticims] of Richard Stallman. I'm sure there are plenty of other valid references with other criticisms. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 23:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

:I looked into this more, and now I don't think it's a good idea to have this in the article. As stated at the end of the old thread linked above, "It is a big challenge, because it is a highly passionate subject among programmers." [https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/phru8g/why_do_a_lot_of_people_seem_to_hate_javascript/?rdt=44417 This Reddit thread] is a good example; in particular, [https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/phru8g/comment/hbl5le3/ this sub-thread] illustrates the point-and-counterpoint nature of these types of critiques and arguments. So I'm retracting this suggestion. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 23:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

<br>
== Language families ==

Programming languages are like natural languages, so can we put a box to the side of the page like on a natural language page, that has the languages pedigree? for example, 


{{Short description|Romance language}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=January 2022}}
{{Use American English|date=February 2023}}
{{Infobox language
| name             = Spanish
| altname          = Castilian
| image            = 
| nativename       = {{hlist|{{lang|es|español}}|{{lang|es|castellano}}}}
| pronunciation    = {{IPA|es|espaˈɲol||Es-español.oga|}}<br/>{{IPA|es|kasteˈʝano||Es-Castellano.oga}}, {{IPA|es|kasteˈʎano||Es castellano 001.ogg}}
| speakers         = Native: 500 million
| date             = 2023
| ref              = <ref name=viva18/>
| speakers2        = Total: 600 million<ref name=viva18/>{{br}}100 million speakers with limited capacity (23 million students)<ref name=viva18/>
| speakers_label   = Speakers
| familycolor      = Indo-European
| fam2             = [[Italic languages|Italic]]
| fam3             = [[Latino-Faliscan languages|Latino-Faliscan]]
| fam4             = [[Latin]]
| fam5             = [[Romance languages|Romance]]
| fam6             = [[Italo-Western languages|Italo-Western]]
| fam7             = [[Western Romance languages|Western Romance]]
| fam8             = Gallo-Iberian
| fam9             = [[Iberian Romance languages|Ibero-Romance]]
| fam10            = [[West Iberian languages|West Iberian]]
| fam11            = [[Castilian languages|Castilian]]<ref name="Ethnologue">{{Harvcoltxt|Eberhard|Simons|Fennig|2020}}</ref><ref name="Glottolog">{{cite book|chapter=Castilic|chapter-url=http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/cast1243|editor1-first=Harald|editor1-last=Hammarström|editor2-first=Robert|editor2-last=Forkel|editor3-first=Martin|editor3-last=Haspelmath|editor4-first=Sebastian|editor4-last=Bank|year=2022|title=[[Glottolog|Glottolog 4.6]]|edition=|location=Jena, Germany|publisher=Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology|ref={{sfnref|Glottolog|2022}}|access-date=19 June 2022|archive-date=28 May 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220528095200/https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/cast1243|url-status=live}}</ref>
| ancestor         = [[Vulgar Latin]]
| ancestor2        = [[Old Spanish]]
| ancestor3        = [[Early Modern Spanish]]
| script           = [[Latin script|Latin script]] ([[Spanish alphabet]])<br />[[Spanish Braille]]
| nation           = {{Collapsible list | titlestyle = font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left; | title = [[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|20
countries]]|
|[[Argentina]]
|[[Bolivia]]
|[[Chile]]
|[[Colombia]]
|[[Costa Rica]]
|[[Cuba]]
|[[Dominican Republic]]
|[[Ecuador]]
|[[El Salvador]]
|[[Equatorial Guinea]] 
|[[Guatemala]]
|[[Honduras]]
|[[Mexico]]
|[[Nicaragua]]
|[[Panama]]
|[[Paraguay]]
|[[Peru]]
|[[Spain]]
|[[Uruguay]]
|[[Venezuela]]
}}
<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;|title=[[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|Dependent territories]]|
|[[Puerto Rico]]
}}
<!-- This list is intended for subnational territories that do not form an integral part of a country (such as Puerto Rico), as well as integral parts of nations that are not traditionally considered Spanish-speaking. Adding Ceuta and Melilla will result in deletion as they are integral parts of Spain. This also applies to Chile and the case of Easter Island. -->
<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;|title=[[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|Partially recognized country]]|
|[[Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic]]
}}
<!-- This list is intended for countries with limited recognition where Spanish is an official language. -->
<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;|title=[[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|Significant minority]]|
|[[Andorra]]
|[[Belize]]
|[[Gibraltar]]
|[[United States]]
}}
<!-- This list is only intended for countries and territories where Spanish is currently spoken by a significant minority of the population (~20% or more) and is used as a major working language in government and other institutions. The Philippines, Morocco, Western Sahara, Guam, the Mariana Islands, and other former historic Spanish colonies where considerably less than 20% of the population speaks standard Spanish should not be listed here. -->
<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;| title = [[List of countries where Spanish is an official language#International organizations|International<br />organizations]]|
| [[African Union]]
| [[Andean Community]]
| [[Association of Caribbean States]]
| [[Caribbean Community]]
| [[Community of Latin American and Caribbean States|CELAC]]
| [[European Union]]
| [[Latin American Integration Association|ALADI]]
| [[Latin American Parliament]]
| [[Mercosur]]
| [[Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe|OSCE]]
| [[Organization of American States]]
| [[United Nations]]
| [[Union of South American Nations]]
| [[Organization of Ibero-American States]]
}}
| agency           = [[Association of Spanish Language Academies]]<br />({{lang|es|[[Real Academia Española]]}} and 22 other national Spanish language academies)
| iso1             = es
| iso2             = spa
| iso3             = spa
| lingua           = 51-AAA-b
| sign             = [[Signed Spanish]] (using signs of the local language)
| glotto           = stan1288
| glottorefname    = Spanish
| map              = File:Map-Hispanophone World.svg
| mapcaption       = {{legend|#045a8d|Official majority language}}
{{legend|#0674b6|Co-official or administrative language but not majority native language}}
{{legend|#9bbae1|Secondary language (more than 20% Spanish speakers) or culturally important}}
| notice           = IPA
}} [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 21:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

:As you can see, Spanish is descended from Latin, which is descended from Proto Indo European. Could we show the same with Javascript, to show that it is descended from C++, which in turn is descended from SIMULA? [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 21:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
::Note: the sources cited are accidental. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 21:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{tq|Programming languages are like natural languages}}. No they aren't. That being said, like many collections of things (family trees, biological taxonomies, books in a library) they can be arranged in a hierarchy. At least, some of them can. I'm supposing some of them would be better described as creoles. I'll leave it to others to discuss whether this is of value. But perhaps this would be better discussed at a higher-level, general page like [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Software]]. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 00:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{tq|Programming languages are like natural languages, so can we put a box to the side of the page like on a natural language page, that has the languages pedigree?}} Yes, you can; it's called {{tl|Infobox programming language}}, and it's ''already there''.
:{{tq|As you can see, Spanish is descended from Latin,}} And, as you can see from that infobox, JavaScript is descended from [[Java (programming language)|Java]],<ref name="looklikejava">{{cite book|last=Seibel|first=Peter|title=Coders at Work: Reflections on the Craft of Programming|isbn=9781430219484|quote="Eich: The immediate concern at Netscape was it must look like Java."|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nneBa6-mWfgC&q=The+immediate+concern+at+Netscape+was+it+must+look+like+Java.&pg=PA141|access-date=December 25, 2018|date=September 16, 2009|publisher=Apress |archive-date=December 24, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201224233514/https://books.google.com/books?id=nneBa6-mWfgC&q=The+immediate+concern+at+Netscape+was+it+must+look+like+Java.&pg=PA141|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name="origin"/> [[Scheme (programming language)|Scheme]],<ref name="origin"/> [[Self (programming language)|Self]],<ref>{{cite web|url=https://brendaneich.com/2008/04/popularity/|title = Popularity – Brendan Eich}}</ref> [[AWK]],<ref>{{cite web|title=Brendan Eich: An Introduction to JavaScript, JSConf 2010|website=[[YouTube]]|quote="Eich: "function", eight letters, I was influenced by AWK."|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyRscXrehw|access-date=November 25, 2019|page=22m|archive-date=August 29, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200829024704/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyRscXrehw|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[HyperTalk]]<ref>{{cite book |last=Eich |first=Brendan |authorlink1=Brendan Eich |chapter=Foreword |editor1-last=Goodman |editor1-first=Danny |editor1-link=Danny Goodman |year=1998 |title=JavaScript Bible |edition=3rd |publisher=[[John Wiley & Sons]] |isbn=0-7645-3188-3 |lccn=97078208 |oclc=38888873 |ol=712205M |url-access=registration |url=https://archive.org/details/javascriptbible000good}}</ref>
:{{tq|which is descended from Proto Indo European.}} Which is only ''implicitly'' mentioned in the {{tl|Infobox language}} infobox in [[Spanish language]].
:That infobox gives a taxonomy, not a history; the taxonomy has [[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] at the top, meaning that it's the topmost category in which Spanish belongs; all languages in that category descend from the [[Proto-Indo-European language]]. The "Latin" in the [[Language family]] section of that infobox refers to a "Latin" subfamily of the [[Latino-Faliscan languages]].  That subfamily can either be thought of as being the [[Romance languages]], if you include the [[Latin]] language as a Romance language, or Latin plus the Romance languages, if you consider the Romance languages to be the ''descendants'' of Latin.
:Whilst JavaScript inherits some syntax and ideas from some other languages, it also has ideas of its own, so it's not clear from its influences to which hierarchy of families it belongs (more than just Java, and it doesn't inherit everything from Java) So the infobox has, instead, there are various language types, or [[programming paradigm]]s - a language may use more than one paradigm - predecessors ("influenced by"), and successors ("influenced")
:{{tq|Could we show the same with Javascript, to show that it is descended from C++}} Is it descended ''directly'' from C++, or it it descended from - or, rather, influenced by - [[Java (programming language)|Java]], which is, in turn, influenced by many languages, including but not limited to C++? [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 06:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
::JavaScript is a Lisp-like language with Java-like syntax. C++ has nothing to do with it except that it was one of the first popular object-oriented programming languages. Which goes to show that this is a bad idea: including this won't teach anybody anything and will invite endless bickering. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 08:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Then what is this? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Genealogical_tree_of_programming_languages.svg [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 17:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
::::It's a [[directed acyclic graph]] of influences of languages on other languages that appears to omit the influence of C on C++ and the influence of [[Smalltalk]] on [[Objective-C]], so perhaps it should be titled "Incomplete graph of influences of programming languages on other programming languages".
::::It also shows [[LiveScript]] as having no "ancestors" (meaning "languages that influenced it"), with [[JavaScript]] as an immediate descendant and [[ECMAScript]] as an immediate descendant of JavaScript, showing neither any syntactic influence from [[Java]] nor any semantic influence from [[Lisp]] or [[Scheme]]. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
::::ok [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 22:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Guys, I don't want to dispute, please, I just would like something like the thing over here→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→
:::I think it could be useful. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 17:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tq|I don't want to dispute}} But you submitted a proposal; did you seriously think that submitting a proposal does not risk dispute?  If so, you made a mistaken assumption.  (Even if you thought your ''particular'' proposal was uncontroversial, you made a mistaken assumption, as you have now discovered.)
::::{{tq|I think it could be useful}} And I am unconvinced of that, for the reasons I've already given. It appears that [[User:Rp]] may also be unconvinced of that. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
::Yeah that is what I mean. Arrange a taxonomy of programming languages, with Javascript at the bottom and its oldest ancestor at the top. And its descendants too, like Ruby. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 17:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
:::That's not what a [[taxonomy]] is; a taxonomy is a hierarchical classification, meaning a sequence of categories, from most inclusive to least inclusive, such that everything in a less-inclusive category also being in the preceding more-inclusive category, with the taxonomy of a particular item being a sequence leading up to a category that includes the item.  Such a taxonomy may reflect the history of the item, in that, for example, the taxonomy of the [[English language]] shows it as being an [[Indo-European language]] and thus descended from the [[Proto-Indo-European language]], and a [[Germanic language]] and thus a descendant of the [[Proto-Germanic language]], and so on.  However, it doesn't reflect the huge dump of French vocabulary from the [[Norman conquest]] nor the major grammatical changes resulting from the influence of, it appears, [[Old Norse]] ({{section link|Middle English|Transition from Old English}}), which ''would'' show up in a directed acyclic graph of major influences of human languages on other human languages.
:::If you want to show the languages that influenced JavaScript and the languages it influenced, all you have to do is Not. Remove. From. The. Article. The. Infobox. That's. Already. There. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
::::ok [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 22:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

'''Disagree''' with this proposal. The notion of a ''family'' is inherently flawed when it comes to JavaScript. It is a distinct language created (rather hastily in hindsight) for the specific purpose of dynamic webpages. The current "Influenced" lists in the sidebar are sufficient as-is. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 14:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:ok. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 15:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Despite my blunt statement, I appreciate this thread. It was an interesting reminder of just how different natural languages are from our very recent (in terms of millennia of human history) computer revolution with lots of different programming languages. So please don't feel too bad about the outcome of this thread. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 16:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::ok [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 23:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

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