View source for Module talk:Sports table/January 2023 RFC

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| text  = This page is an [[Help:Archiving a talk page|archive]] of past discussions from [[Template talk:2022–23 Top 14 Table]]. '''Do not edit the contents of this page'''. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the [[:{{{1|{{#titleparts:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|1}}}}}|current talk page]].
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== Sports table module ==

{{Ping|FrenchFootball}} Please understand that [[Module:Sports table]] is an all-purpose table for the majority of sports, and not just association football. I put in a lot of effort to adapt [[Module:Sports table/Custom]] to suit the style of Top 14, with its bonus points counting to the sum of points as well, among other things. — [[User:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 ([[User talk:AFC Vixen|talk]]) 18:00, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

{{Ping|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} Can you please explain what your "{{Diff||1123582570|1120954572|actual update}}" is all about? — [[User:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 ([[User talk:AFC Vixen|talk]]) 01:42, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

:To include tries and summaries of bonus points. This style of table is literally found in every European league. There is no reason for this to change for this one. [[User:Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel|Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel|talk]]) 01:53, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

::{{Reply to|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} Arguing that the current table should stay because it is in other articles is an [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]] argument that lacks an opinion as to ''why'' you think the current table is ''better'' than [[Module:Sports table]]. The sports table module is used very widely across Wikipedia, because its ability to automate table positions and sums of points makes it significantly easier for people to edit than having to manually add, change, and/or rearrange every single point of data into the table.
::If you wanted the bonus points to be resolved into try and losing bonuses, and for tries to be included as well, then I can easily add those into the table's code. However, a [[WP:RELIABLE]] source would need to be found to verify these. The [https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14?season=32442&day=38871 official Top 14 table] does not document tries and only documents the total bonus points. The [https://www.ultimaterugby.com/top-14-2022-2023/table current source] used in the table says all teams have 0 tries and 0 try bonuses... so it is ''clearly'' inaccurate. [https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/rugby/top-14/classement ''Le Figaro''] does not record tries or a breakdown of bonus points, and neither does the [https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/top-14/table BBC] or [https://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/competitions/top-14/tables Sky Sports]. Do you have a reliable source for these statistics that we could use? — [[User:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 ([[User talk:AFC Vixen|talk]]) 05:41, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

::{{Reply to|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} You still have not answered my inquiries, especially about your opinion as to why the current table is better than Module:Sports table, and about the inaccurate, unreliable source currently being used. [[Wikipedia:Communication is required|Communication is required]]. Between the lack of communication and {{Diff||1125134694|1125122459|your rather condescending edit summary}}, I am starting to reconsider my presumption of [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|good faith]]. — [[User:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 ([[User talk:AFC Vixen|talk]]) 23:02, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

::{{Reply to|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} Once again requesting a response to my concerns. — [[User:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 ([[User talk:AFC Vixen|talk]]) 19:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

::{{Reply to|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} I've asked twice that you please discuss this matter. I'm going to go ahead and restore my changes. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|ANI]] for [[WP:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] by reverting without discussing. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 15:41, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:::For the last time. This is not broken, therefore it does NOT need fixing. Therefore it will NOT be fixed. [[User:Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel|Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel|talk]]) 16:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
::::This seems like it's begging for an RFC where the arguments for and against are put up for comment and discussion from all users. Otherwise there's a lot of behavior here that veers in to [[WP:OWN]] territory. Mikey, AFC, would you two mind putting together position statements in the next day or two and we can run an RFC? --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|WhoIs 127.0.0.1]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|loopback]] 13:28, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
{{Outdent|4}}
I am hoping that we can immediately, without discussion, remove the "tries for" and "tries against" columns, and merge the "try bonus" and "losing bonus" columns into a simple "bonus" column. The [https://www.ultimaterugby.com/top-14-2022-2023/table current source] is clearly unreliable as three of these columns are literally "0"s across the rows. '''This is objectively a [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|failed verification]]'''. No [[WP:RS|reliable source]] I have seen ([https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 the official table], [https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/rugby/top-14/classement ''Le Figaro''], [https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/top-14/table BBC], [https://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/competitions/top-14/tables Sky Sports]) even has these numbers.

Otherwise, as a subjective argument for replacing the entire table instead of just these columns, I make three points.
* [[Module:Sports table]] offers features such as automated sums and error messages that appear in the preview when errors occur. These are not available with a simple wikitext-based table, and make editing significantly easier and less-worry free.
* The wikitext-based table currently used is more cumbersome in the way it displays information for the reader, such as an entire key in the footer that could instead be more conveniently integrated into the table itself, like Module:Sports table already does.
* The only fundamental difference between football, rugby league, and rugby union's tables is the way competition points are handed out, which can be easily accounted for using [[Module:Sports table/Custom]] cells, {{Diff||1129883377|1126484921|as I already proved}} by coding a table that automatically adds the number in the bonus points column to the sum in the competition points column. It makes no sense for rugby tables to look and function differently from Module:Sports tables used for football and rugby league.

{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
|+ class="nowrap" | Module:Sports table
|-
| {{#invoke:Sports table | main | style=Custom | winpoints=4 | drawpoints=2 | plus_sign_diffs=yes | num_cols=9 | colstyle1=pld | colstyle2=win | colstyle3=draw | colstyle4=loss | col_header5={{Abbr|B|Bonus competition points}} | col_header6={{Abbr|PF|Match points for}} | col_header7={{Abbr|PA|Match points against}} | colstyle8=diff_col6_col7 | col_header8={{Abbr|PD|Match points difference}} | colstyle9=sum_points_col5 | col_header9={{Abbr|Pts|Competition points}} 

<!-- Teams -->
| name_BAY = [[Aviron Bayonnais|Bayonne]]
| name_BOR = [[Union Bordeaux Bègles|Bordeaux Bègles]]
| name_BRI = [[CA Brive|Brive]]
| name_CAS = [[Castres Olympique|Castres]]
| name_CLE = [[ASM Clermont Auvergne|Clermont]]
| name_LYO = [[Lyon OU|Lyon]]
| name_MON = [[Montpellier Hérault Rugby|Montpellier]]
| name_PAU = [[Section Paloise|Pau]]
| name_PER = [[USA Perpignan|Perpignan]]
| name_RAC = [[Racing 92]]
| name_ROC = [[Stade Rochelais|La Rochelle]]
| name_FRA = [[Stade Français]]
| name_TON = [[RC Toulonnais|Toulon]]
| name_TSE = [[Stade Toulousain|Toulouse]]

<!-- Positions -->
| team_order = TSE, FRA, RAC, MON, ROC, BAY, BOR, TON, LYO, CLE, PAU, CAS, PER, BRI <!-- From left to right, 1st place to 14th place -->

<!-- Stats -->
| win_BAY=7 | draw_BAY=1 | loss_BAY=5  | col5_BAY=1 | col6_BAY=295 | col7_BAY=309  <!-- Bayonne -->
| win_BOR=6 | draw_BOR=1 | loss_BOR=6  | col5_BOR=4 | col6_BOR=279 | col7_BOR=276  <!-- Bordeaux Bègles -->
| win_BRI=3 | draw_BRI=0 | loss_BRI=10 | col5_BRI=5 | col6_BRI=202 | col7_BRI=354  <!-- Brive -->
| win_CAS=6 | draw_CAS=0 | loss_CAS=7  | col5_CAS=2 | col6_CAS=265 | col7_CAS=306  <!-- Castres -->
| win_CLE=5 | draw_CLE=1 | loss_CLE=7  | col5_CLE=5 | col6_CLE=287 | col7_CLE=321  <!-- Clermont -->
| win_LYO=7 | draw_LYO=0 | loss_LYO=6  | col5_LYO=1 | col6_LYO=302 | col7_LYO=328  <!-- Lyon -->
| win_MON=7 | draw_MON=0 | loss_MON=6  | col5_MON=6 | col6_MON=348 | col7_MON=282  <!-- Montpellier -->
| win_PAU=5 | draw_PAU=1 | loss_PAU=7  | col5_PAU=5 | col6_PAU=306 | col7_PAU=310  <!-- Pau -->
| win_PER=4 | draw_PER=0 | loss_PER=9  | col5_PER=2 | col6_PER=188 | col7_PER=352  <!-- Perpignan -->
| win_RAC=8 | draw_RAC=0 | loss_RAC=5  | col5_RAC=3 | col6_RAC=366 | col7_RAC=335  <!-- Racing 92 -->
| win_ROC=7 | draw_ROC=0 | loss_ROC=6  | col5_ROC=4 | col6_ROC=306 | col7_ROC=253  <!-- La Rochelle -->
| win_FRA=7 | draw_FRA=1 | loss_FRA=5  | col5_FRA=7 | col6_FRA=339 | col7_FRA=224  <!-- Stade Français -->
| win_TON=7 | draw_TON=0 | loss_TON=6  | col5_TON=2 | col6_TON=299 | col7_TON=269  <!-- Toulon -->
| win_TSE=9 | draw_TSE=1 | loss_TSE=3  | col5_TSE=6 | col6_TSE=351 | col7_TSE=214  <!-- Toulouse -->

<!-- Footer -->
| update      = 25 December 2022 <!-- Please update when changing the table -->
| source      = [https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 Top 14]
| class_rules = 1) Competition points earned in head-to-head matches; 2) Points difference in head-to-head matches; 3) Try differential in head-to-head matches; 4) Points difference in all matches; 5) Try differential in all matches; 6) Points scored in all matches; 7) Tries scored in all matches; 8) Fewer matches forfeited; 9) Classification in the [[2021–22 Top 14 season|previous Top 14 season]].

<!-- Colours -->
| res_col_header=Q | result1=SF | result2=SF | result3=QF | result4=QF | result5=QF | result6=QF | result7=E | result8=E | result9=E | result10=E |result11=E | result12=E | result13 = R1 | result14 = R2
| col_SF = green2 | text_SF = [[2023–24 European Rugby Champions Cup|Champions Cup]] & play-off semi-final
| col_QF = blue2  | text_QF = Champions Cup & play-off quarter-final
| col_E  =        | text_E  = [[2023–24 European Rugby Challenge Cup|Challenge Cup]]
| col_R1 = red3   | text_R1 = Relegation play-off
| col_R2 = red2   | text_R2 = [[2023–24 Rugby Pro D2|Rugby Pro D2]]
}}
|}
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: center;"
|+ class="nowrap" | Wikitext table
| colspan="15" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"|<!--


-->
{|border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
|width=20% style="border:0px"|
|style="border:0px"|'''[[2022–23 Top 14 season|2022–23 Top 14]] Table'''
|width=20% style="border:0px;text-align:right;"|<small class="editlink noprint plainlinksneverexpand">[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Template:2022–23 Top 14 Table|action=watch}} watch] · [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Template:2022–23 Top 14 Table|action=edit}} edit] · [[Template talk:2022–23 Top 14 Table|discuss]]</small>
|}
|-
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="20"  |
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="130" | Club
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="40"  | Played
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="35"  | Won
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="35"  | Drawn
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="35"  | Lost
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Points for
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Points against
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Points {{Abbr|diff.|difference}}
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Bonus
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="40"  | Points
|- style="background-color:#CCF9CC;text-align:center;"
| 1 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Stade Toulousain|Toulouse]] || 13 || 9 || 1 || 3 || 351 || 214 || +137 || 6 || '''44'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9CC;text-align:center;"
| 2 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Stade Français]] || 13 || 7 || 1 || 5 || 339 || 224 || +115 || 7 || '''37'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;" 
| 3 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Racing 92|Racing]] || 13 || 8 || 0 || 5 || 366 || 335 || +31 || 3 || '''35'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;"
| 4 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Montpellier Hérault Rugby|Montpellier]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 348 || 282 || +66 || 6 || '''34'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;"
| 5 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Stade Rochelais|La Rochelle]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 306 || 253 || +53 || 4 || '''32'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;" 
| 6 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Aviron Bayonnais|Bayonne]] || 13 || 7 || 1 || 5 || 295 || 309 || –14 || 1 || '''31'''
|- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;text-align:center;"
| 7 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Union Bordeaux Bègles|Bordeaux Bègles]] || 13 || 6 || 1 || 6 || 279 || 276 || +3 || 4 || '''30'''
|- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;text-align:center;"
| 8 || style="text-align:left;" | [[RC Toulonnais|Toulon]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 299 || 269 || +30 || 2 || '''30'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 9 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Lyon OU|Lyon]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 302 || 328 || –26 || 1 || '''29'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 10 || style="text-align:left;" | [[ASM Clermont Auvergne|Clermont]] || 13 || 5 || 1 || 7 || 287 || 321 || –34 || 5 || '''27'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 11 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Section Paloise|Pau]] || 13 || 5 || 1 || 7 || 306 || 310 || –4 || 5 || '''27'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 12 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Castres Olympique|Castres]] || 13 || 6 || 0 || 7 || 265 || 306 || –41 || 2 || '''26'''
|- style="background-color:#FFDDDD;text-align:center;" 
| 13 || style="text-align:left;" | [[USA Perpignan|Perpignan]] || 13 || 4 || 0 || 9 || 188 || 352 || –166 || 2 || '''18'''
|- style="background-color:#FFCCCC;text-align:center;"
| 14 || style="text-align:left;" | [[CA Brive|Brive]] || 13 || 3 || 0 || 10 || 202 || 354 || –152 || 5 || '''17'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"

| colspan="14" | 
<small>If teams are level at any stage, tiebreakers are applied in the following order:</small>
# <small>Competition points earned in head-to-head matches</small>
# <small>Points difference in head-to-head matches</small>
# <small>Try differential in head-to-head matches</small>
# <small>Points difference in all matches</small>
# <small>Try differential in all matches</small>
# <small>Points scored in all matches</small>
# <small>Tries scored in all matches</small>
# <small>Fewer matches forfeited</small>
# <small>Classification in the previous Top 14 season</small>
|-| style="text-align:left;" |
|colspan="15" style="border:0px"| <small><span style="background:#CCF9CC">Green background</span> (rows 1 and 2) will receive semi-final play-off and [[2023–24 European Rugby Champions Cup]] places.<br /><span style="background:#CCF9FF">Blue background</span> (rows 3 to 6) will receive quarter-final play-off and Champions Cup places.<br /><span style="background:#f9f9f9">Plain background</span> will receive [[2023–24 European Rugby Challenge Cup]] places.<br /><span style="background:#FFDDDD">Pink background</span> (row 13) will receive a relegation play-off place.<br /><span style="background:#FFCCCC">Red background</span> (row 14) will be relegated to the [[2023–24 Rugby Pro D2]].</small><br><small>Updated to match(es) played on 25 December 2022. Source: [https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 Top 14]</small>
|-| style="text-align:left;" |
|}

— [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 14:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

:AFC, I appreciate your obvious passion but there's no need for immediate anything, see [[WP:NODEADLINE]]. Let's give Mikey a chance to state their full position, see if we can produce mutually agreeable short summaries of each side and then present it as an RFC posted in the usual places. This is going to take a little bit but I promise it will result in a lot more light and a lot less heat. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|WhoIs 127.0.0.1]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|loopback]] 17:25, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
::You told us "two" put together our position statements. You gave no indication that you wanted Mikey to give their position first. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 17:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I wasn't commenting on the order, the fact that you went first is totally fine! I was commenting on the "immediately, without discussion" bit that you started with. Things are a little wound up, I get that, but I'm not here as anybody but just another editor who can help navigate the dispute resolution process. Let's get along? --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|WhoIs 127.0.0.1]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|loopback]] 17:40, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I apologise that my response was unsatisfactory, but please understand that it was not meant as anything other than simply questioning your instructions. I am trying to write in as innocuous and inoffensive language as reasonably possible here. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 17:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::Don't worry, I didn't take offense to it. I'll wait for Mikey now and we can get the ball rolling. -[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|WhoIs 127.0.0.1]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|loopback]] 18:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

My comment is the model I insist is used is the same used for other tables used in the sport. In terms of rugby union, this is the way the table currently is. The current table is also used in every other European league and competition provincially and internationally. Therefore, I do not understand why it should be changed to another module used in other sports. Using another module also does not improve the table, which is why I underline keeping it the way it is. [[User:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|talk]]) 22:32, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|AFC_Vixen}}, Mikey I'm placing this as a reply to you so you should already be notified. Here's what I've come up with and pruning it down to the recommended couple of sentences each. Let me know if you both believe this summarizes your position. We have this as the question: 
:*Should this season's rugby union Top 14 Table be updated to the module-based table or remain as-is?
:To that question we have two choices. Choice A will be Mikey's question since it represents a null change, the current version. Choice B will be AFC's because it represents a change it situation.
:*'''A:''' The table should remain. The consensus across rugby union articles is the wikitext based table across a wide variety of competitions and leagues. There is no pressing need to change formats.
:*'''B:''' The table should be updated to use Module:Sports. Using the module derived table makes continued maintenance of the table easier, allowing some fields to be automated and giving clear errors to identify problems, as well as substantial readability improvements. Other, similar sports have already moved to the module based table.
:Do you both accept the wording and question? --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 17:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::I presumed the way I wrote my arguments would be the one used. If you needed it to be significantly shorter, I would have liked to have been told so. In any case, I have tried my best to make my argument more concise than before, based on what you have written, even if it does remove some of the nuance that I fear is necessary:
::* '''B:''' The tables should be replaced with [[Module:Sports table]]. This universal module works fine for rugby union, and other, similar sports already use it; there is no need for different tables when one works for all. Continued maintenance of the table would be made easier through automated fields and error messages to identify problems, while its design improves readability and reduces size without removing information.
::Please also include the two examples of Module:sports table and the Wikitext table as presented above. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 20:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Your full position will be presented word for word in the arguments below the RfC question and statements. If you read [[WP:RfC]] you'll see {{green|For technical reasons, statements may not contain tables or complex formatting, although these may be added after the initial statement (i.e., after the first timestamp).}} So the table will go beneath the question and two statements. If you'd like me to include your updated statement in place of the one I produced I'm more then happy to do so. I've read it, it's neutral and short enough to be transcluded with the RfC template. I will still include your full argument with tables at the start of the RfC discussion. Is that ok? --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 22:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Yep. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 03:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} Hoping to get your approval of the summary so I can get the RfC posted. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 10:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::Approved [[User:Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel|Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey&#39;Da&#39;Man, Archangel|talk]]) 15:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:And for both of you, I just want to mention once I do get it posted and linked from the places it needs to be my involvement here will end. I'm not taking sides in the content dispute and won't be contributing to the community discussion. That's partly so that you both trust my neutrality. I appreciate both of you for working towards collaborative dispute resolution and for wanting to make the 'pedia a world class reference work. --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 10:29, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

==RfC==
{{closed rfc top
| status = 
| result = The consensus is clearly in favor of B. &mdash; [[User:Mdaniels5757|Mdaniels5757]] ([[User talk:Mdaniels5757|talk]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Mdaniels5757|contribs]]) 17:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
}}



Should this season's rugby union Top 14 Table be updated to the module-based table or remain as-is? --[[User:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|(loopback)]] [[User_talk:127(point)0(point)0(point)1|ping]]/[[Special:Contributions/127(point)0(point)0(point)1|whereis]] 07:25, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

'''A:''' The table should remain. The consensus across rugby union articles is the wikitext based table across a wide variety of competitions and leagues. There is no pressing need to change formats.

'''B:''' The tables should be replaced with Module:Sports table. This universal module works fine for rugby union, and other, similar sports already use it; there is no need for different tables when one works for all. Continued maintenance of the table would be made easier through automated fields and error messages to identify problems, while its design improves readability and reduces size without removing information.

===Full Reasoning===
Copied from above:

'''A:''' My comment is the model I insist is used is the same used for other tables used in the sport. In terms of rugby union, this is the way the table currently is. The current table is also used in every other European league and competition provincially and internationally. Therefore, I do not understand why it should be changed to another module used in other sports. Using another module also does not improve the table, which is why I underline keeping it the way it is. [[User:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|talk]]) 22:32, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

'''B:'''

I am hoping that we can immediately, without discussion, remove the "tries for" and "tries against" columns, and merge the "try bonus" and "losing bonus" columns into a simple "bonus" column. The [https://www.ultimaterugby.com/top-14-2022-2023/table current source] is clearly unreliable as three of these columns are literally "0"s across the rows. '''This is objectively a [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|failed verification]]'''. No [[WP:RS|reliable source]] I have seen ([https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 the official table], [https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/rugby/top-14/classement ''Le Figaro''], [https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/top-14/table BBC], [https://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/competitions/top-14/tables Sky Sports]) even has these numbers.

Otherwise, as a subjective argument for replacing the entire table instead of just these columns, I make three points.
* [[Module:Sports table]] offers features such as automated sums and error messages that appear in the preview when errors occur. These are not available with a simple wikitext-based table, and make editing significantly easier and less-worry free.
* The wikitext-based table currently used is more cumbersome in the way it displays information for the reader, such as an entire key in the footer that could instead be more conveniently integrated into the table itself, like Module:Sports table already does.
* The only fundamental difference between football, rugby league, and rugby union's tables is the way competition points are handed out, which can be easily accounted for using [[Module:Sports table/Custom]] cells, {{Diff||1129883377|1126484921|as I already proved}} by coding a table that automatically adds the number in the bonus points column to the sum in the competition points column. It makes no sense for rugby tables to look and function differently from Module:Sports tables used for football and rugby league.

{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
|+ class="nowrap" | Module:Sports table
|-
| {{#invoke:Sports table | main | style=Custom | winpoints=4 | drawpoints=2 | plus_sign_diffs=yes | num_cols=9 | colstyle1=pld | colstyle2=win | colstyle3=draw | colstyle4=loss | col_header5={{Abbr|B|Bonus competition points}} | col_header6={{Abbr|PF|Match points for}} | col_header7={{Abbr|PA|Match points against}} | colstyle8=diff_col6_col7 | col_header8={{Abbr|PD|Match points difference}} | colstyle9=sum_points_col5 | col_header9={{Abbr|Pts|Competition points}} 

<!-- Teams -->
| name_BAY = [[Aviron Bayonnais|Bayonne]]
| name_BOR = [[Union Bordeaux Bègles|Bordeaux Bègles]]
| name_BRI = [[CA Brive|Brive]]
| name_CAS = [[Castres Olympique|Castres]]
| name_CLE = [[ASM Clermont Auvergne|Clermont]]
| name_LYO = [[Lyon OU|Lyon]]
| name_MON = [[Montpellier Hérault Rugby|Montpellier]]
| name_PAU = [[Section Paloise|Pau]]
| name_PER = [[USA Perpignan|Perpignan]]
| name_RAC = [[Racing 92]]
| name_ROC = [[Stade Rochelais|La Rochelle]]
| name_FRA = [[Stade Français]]
| name_TON = [[RC Toulonnais|Toulon]]
| name_TSE = [[Stade Toulousain|Toulouse]]

<!-- Positions -->
| team_order = TSE, FRA, RAC, MON, ROC, BAY, BOR, TON, LYO, CLE, PAU, CAS, PER, BRI <!-- From left to right, 1st place to 14th place -->

<!-- Stats -->
| win_BAY=7 | draw_BAY=1 | loss_BAY=5  | col5_BAY=1 | col6_BAY=295 | col7_BAY=309  <!-- Bayonne -->
| win_BOR=6 | draw_BOR=1 | loss_BOR=6  | col5_BOR=4 | col6_BOR=279 | col7_BOR=276  <!-- Bordeaux Bègles -->
| win_BRI=3 | draw_BRI=0 | loss_BRI=10 | col5_BRI=5 | col6_BRI=202 | col7_BRI=354  <!-- Brive -->
| win_CAS=6 | draw_CAS=0 | loss_CAS=7  | col5_CAS=2 | col6_CAS=265 | col7_CAS=306  <!-- Castres -->
| win_CLE=5 | draw_CLE=1 | loss_CLE=7  | col5_CLE=5 | col6_CLE=287 | col7_CLE=321  <!-- Clermont -->
| win_LYO=7 | draw_LYO=0 | loss_LYO=6  | col5_LYO=1 | col6_LYO=302 | col7_LYO=328  <!-- Lyon -->
| win_MON=7 | draw_MON=0 | loss_MON=6  | col5_MON=6 | col6_MON=348 | col7_MON=282  <!-- Montpellier -->
| win_PAU=5 | draw_PAU=1 | loss_PAU=7  | col5_PAU=5 | col6_PAU=306 | col7_PAU=310  <!-- Pau -->
| win_PER=4 | draw_PER=0 | loss_PER=9  | col5_PER=2 | col6_PER=188 | col7_PER=352  <!-- Perpignan -->
| win_RAC=8 | draw_RAC=0 | loss_RAC=5  | col5_RAC=3 | col6_RAC=366 | col7_RAC=335  <!-- Racing 92 -->
| win_ROC=7 | draw_ROC=0 | loss_ROC=6  | col5_ROC=4 | col6_ROC=306 | col7_ROC=253  <!-- La Rochelle -->
| win_FRA=7 | draw_FRA=1 | loss_FRA=5  | col5_FRA=7 | col6_FRA=339 | col7_FRA=224  <!-- Stade Français -->
| win_TON=7 | draw_TON=0 | loss_TON=6  | col5_TON=2 | col6_TON=299 | col7_TON=269  <!-- Toulon -->
| win_TSE=9 | draw_TSE=1 | loss_TSE=3  | col5_TSE=6 | col6_TSE=351 | col7_TSE=214  <!-- Toulouse -->

<!-- Footer -->
| update      = 25 December 2022 <!-- Please update when changing the table -->
| source      = [https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 Top 14]
| class_rules = 1) Competition points earned in head-to-head matches; 2) Points difference in head-to-head matches; 3) Try differential in head-to-head matches; 4) Points difference in all matches; 5) Try differential in all matches; 6) Points scored in all matches; 7) Tries scored in all matches; 8) Fewer matches forfeited; 9) Classification in the [[2021–22 Top 14 season|previous Top 14 season]].

<!-- Colours -->
| res_col_header=Q | result1=SF | result2=SF | result3=QF | result4=QF | result5=QF | result6=QF | result7=E | result8=E | result9=E | result10=E |result11=E | result12=E | result13 = R1 | result14 = R2
| col_SF = green2 | text_SF = [[2023–24 European Rugby Champions Cup|Champions Cup]] & play-off semi-final
| col_QF = blue2  | text_QF = Champions Cup & play-off quarter-final
| col_E  =        | text_E  = [[2023–24 European Rugby Challenge Cup|Challenge Cup]]
| col_R1 = red3   | text_R1 = Relegation play-off
| col_R2 = red2   | text_R2 = Relegation to [[2023–24 Rugby Pro D2|Rugby Pro D2]]
}}
|}
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: center;"
|+ class="nowrap" | Wikitext table
| colspan="15" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"|<!--


-->
{|border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
|width=20% style="border:0px"|
|style="border:0px"|'''[[2022–23 Top 14 season|2022–23 Top 14]] Table'''
|width=20% style="border:0px;text-align:right;"|<small class="editlink noprint plainlinksneverexpand">[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Template:2022–23 Top 14 Table|action=watch}} watch] · [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Template:2022–23 Top 14 Table|action=edit}} edit] · [[Template talk:2022–23 Top 14 Table|discuss]]</small>
|}
|-
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="20"  |
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="130" | Club
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="40"  | Played
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="35"  | Won
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="35"  | Drawn
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="35"  | Lost
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Points for
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Points against
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Points {{Abbr|diff.|difference}}
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="50"  | Bonus
! style="background-color:#efefef;" width="40"  | Points
|- style="background-color:#CCF9CC;text-align:center;"
| 1 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Stade Toulousain|Toulouse]] || 13 || 9 || 1 || 3 || 351 || 214 || +137 || 6 || '''44'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9CC;text-align:center;"
| 2 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Stade Français]] || 13 || 7 || 1 || 5 || 339 || 224 || +115 || 7 || '''37'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;" 
| 3 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Racing 92|Racing]] || 13 || 8 || 0 || 5 || 366 || 335 || +31 || 3 || '''35'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;"
| 4 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Montpellier Hérault Rugby|Montpellier]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 348 || 282 || +66 || 6 || '''34'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;"
| 5 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Stade Rochelais|La Rochelle]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 306 || 253 || +53 || 4 || '''32'''
|- style="background-color:#CCF9FF;text-align:center;" 
| 6 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Aviron Bayonnais|Bayonne]] || 13 || 7 || 1 || 5 || 295 || 309 || –14 || 1 || '''31'''
|- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;text-align:center;"
| 7 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Union Bordeaux Bègles|Bordeaux Bègles]] || 13 || 6 || 1 || 6 || 279 || 276 || +3 || 4 || '''30'''
|- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;text-align:center;"
| 8 || style="text-align:left;" | [[RC Toulonnais|Toulon]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 299 || 269 || +30 || 2 || '''30'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 9 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Lyon OU|Lyon]] || 13 || 7 || 0 || 6 || 302 || 328 || –26 || 1 || '''29'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 10 || style="text-align:left;" | [[ASM Clermont Auvergne|Clermont]] || 13 || 5 || 1 || 7 || 287 || 321 || –34 || 5 || '''27'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 11 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Section Paloise|Pau]] || 13 || 5 || 1 || 7 || 306 || 310 || –4 || 5 || '''27'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"
| 12 || style="text-align:left;" | [[Castres Olympique|Castres]] || 13 || 6 || 0 || 7 || 265 || 306 || –41 || 2 || '''26'''
|- style="background-color:#FFDDDD;text-align:center;" 
| 13 || style="text-align:left;" | [[USA Perpignan|Perpignan]] || 13 || 4 || 0 || 9 || 188 || 352 || –166 || 2 || '''18'''
|- style="background-color:#FFCCCC;text-align:center;"
| 14 || style="text-align:left;" | [[CA Brive|Brive]] || 13 || 3 || 0 || 10 || 202 || 354 || –152 || 5 || '''17'''
|- style="background-color:#ffffff;text-align:center;"

| colspan="14" | 
<small>If teams are level at any stage, tiebreakers are applied in the following order:</small>
# <small>Competition points earned in head-to-head matches</small>
# <small>Points difference in head-to-head matches</small>
# <small>Try differential in head-to-head matches</small>
# <small>Points difference in all matches</small>
# <small>Try differential in all matches</small>
# <small>Points scored in all matches</small>
# <small>Tries scored in all matches</small>
# <small>Fewer matches forfeited</small>
# <small>Classification in the previous Top 14 season</small>
|-| style="text-align:left;" |
|colspan="15" style="border:0px"| <small><span style="background:#CCF9CC">Green background</span> (rows 1 and 2) will receive semi-final play-off and [[2023–24 European Rugby Champions Cup]] places.<br /><span style="background:#CCF9FF">Blue background</span> (rows 3 to 6) will receive quarter-final play-off and Champions Cup places.<br /><span style="background:#f9f9f9">Plain background</span> will receive [[2023–24 European Rugby Challenge Cup]] places.<br /><span style="background:#FFDDDD">Pink background</span> (row 13) will receive a relegation play-off place.<br /><span style="background:#FFCCCC">Red background</span> (row 14) will be relegated to the [[2023–24 Rugby Pro D2]].</small><br><small>Updated to match(es) played on 25 December 2022. Source: [https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 Top 14]</small>
|-| style="text-align:left;" |
|}

— [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 14:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

===Editor discussion===
* '''Support B''' The headings scroll with the text, it is a template rather than a table which makes for easier and more consistent editing rather than working out what is going on with a table. The qualification column is more useful than how it appears in the table option. It is better for both viewers and editors of Wikipedia. [[User:Gusfriend|Gusfriend]] ([[User talk:Gusfriend|talk]]) 07:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''<s>Comment</s>''' I'd probably lean to supporting B, but I'd like to see a sandboxed example of what the table would look like under the updated module before making a final decision. [[User:Rugbyfan22|Rugbyfan22]] ([[User talk:Rugbyfan22|talk]]) 10:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Rugbyfan22|Rugbyfan22]] the module produced table is immediately above this section. [[User:Nthep|Nthep]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 19:15, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
*::Sorry wasn't clear in the text, from the edit history I can see an example, needs some fine tuning, but '''Support B'''. [[User:Rugbyfan22|Rugbyfan22]] ([[User talk:Rugbyfan22|talk]]) 19:21, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
*:::What kind of fine tuning would you like to see? — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 22:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
*::::Nothing major, just on your example, I'd prefer the last place team to clearly state ''relegated to [[Rugby Pro D2]]'' for this example, obviously will vary on each competition. [[User:Rugbyfan22|Rugbyfan22]] ([[User talk:Rugbyfan22|talk]]) 20:18, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
*:::::I updated the table per your suggestion. How does that look? — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 22:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
*::::::Yeah that's better, obviously will be improvements that can be made when implemented, as each league/competition is different, but the basis of everything I support. [[User:Rugbyfan22|Rugbyfan22]] ([[User talk:Rugbyfan22|talk]]) 19:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support B''' The module has been designed to make editing these tables easier and includes checks to make sure points and games played add up. It also makes the colour coding easier to understand and simplifies the classification rules. [[User:Stevie fae Scotland|Stevie fae Scotland]] ([[User talk:Stevie fae Scotland|talk]]) 15:29, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support B''' Certainly looks simpler to use the automated module rather than having everything be hard-coded.  This doesn't mean that it's worth the effort of going back to prior years' templates and updating them, though. [[User:BubbaJoe123456|BubbaJoe123456]] ([[User talk:BubbaJoe123456|talk]]) 18:14, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
*:I personally do not find it difficult, so I can easily take up the task of updating earlier seasons. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 22:46, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
{{closed rfc bottom}}

Now that you have put the decision against me, I feel it is not right for me to continue updating the French leagues as much as I can, considering I was one of only a couple doing it, and for a brief tenure, the only person. My peaceful protest is now to say, you're on your own. Good luck.
[[User:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|talk]]) 19:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

== Bonus points ==

{{Reply to|Frietjes}} Do you have a reliable source for the try and losing bonus split? As noted multiple times in the lengthy discussion above, neither [https://www.lnr.fr/rugby-top-14/classement-rugby-top-14 LNR], [https://www.lefigaro.fr/sports/rugby/top-14/classement ''Le Figaro''], [https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/top-14/table BBC], nor [https://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/competitions/top-14/tables Sky Sports] distinguish try and losing bonus points, and I was wondering if you were working with another reliable source that you didn't add to the bottom of the table... — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 05:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
: {{U|AFC Vixen}}, no, I copied them from [[:fr:Championnat de France de rugby à XV 2022-2023]].  I will change them back to one column. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 16:25, 31 May 2023 (UTC)