View source for Help talk:Table/Advanced

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{{Split article|from=Help:Table|to=Help:Table/Advanced|diff=1189121580|date=9 December 2023}}

==Strange page name==
This page, "Help:Table. Advanced", has an unusual name that does not conform to any page naming scheme I have seen on Wikipedia. Is it a mistake? If not, what is the reasoning behind the name? If it is a mistake (or a rough draft name), I recommend "[[Help:Table/Advanced]]" as a more standard name. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 20:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

:It is odd and looks like a typo. I see a section header with the same period: "'''mw-datatable. Highlight rows. White background'''". I recommend the same, remove the periods. [[User:Jroberson108|Jroberson108]] ([[User talk:Jroberson108|talk]]) 21:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

:{{u|Jonesey95}}. See: [[Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Leftover subpages?]] Slashes are for subpages. For example:
:[[Special:MyPage/vector-2022.css]] which for me is [[User:Timeshifter/vector-2022.css]] - For Vector 2022.
:[[Special:MyPage/sandbox]] which for me is [[User:Timeshifter/sandbox]]. 
:To find subpages:
:[[Special:Prefixindex/User:Timeshifter/]]
:--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 05:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::Exactly. This page appears to be intended as an adjunct to [[Help:Table]], like [[Help:Table/Width]]. Hence the suggestion of a similar name. The current name makes no sense to me, and to at least one other editor. Again, what is the reasoning behind the name? – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 05:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:::This is not a minor subpage. There are whole new areas of table info not previously discussed in [[Help:Table]]. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 05:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::::It looks like the admin {{u|Novem Linguae}} substituted the slash. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help%3ATable%2FAdvanced&diff=1190157511&oldid=1189329921 diff]. Edit summary: "Novem Linguae moved page [[Help:Table. Advanced]] to [[Help:Table/Advanced]]: periods very uncommon in titles, slash better I think". 
::::I looked at [[Wikipedia:Article titles]] and did not see a prohibition of periods in titles. 
::::I was mainly concerned that it may be a questionable use of subpages. 
::::But I can live with the slash if an admin sees no problem with it. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 09:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::I moved it without seeing this talk page discussion. I guess we all had the same idea :) –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 09:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Timeshifter}} If you still couldn't find it, the restriction is mentioned at [[WP:TSC]]. [[User:Jroberson108|Jroberson108]] ([[User talk:Jroberson108|talk]]) 10:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
{{outdent}} The restriction is only for periods used in particular ways. [[WP:TSC]] links to:
*[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (technical restrictions)]]
A plain old period is not prohibited. As noted in the Novem Linguae edit summary: "periods very uncommon in titles". --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 11:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

==Fork==
I just discovered [[Wikipedia:Advanced table formatting]], which is a fairly clear [[WP:SAMETYPEFORK]] of this page. This page was created because [[Help:Table]] was too long. If we merge the two pages, we will be back where we started. My proposed solution is a split followed by a merge. This page currently deals with two related, but distinct, ideas. One is "what you can do with a table": sections like [[Help:Table/Advanced#Horizontal alignment in cells|Horizontal alignment in cells]], [[Help:Table/Advanced#Sortable tables|Sortable tables]], and [[Help:Table/Advanced#Collapsible tables|Collapsible tables]]. The other is "how you create a table": sections like [[Help:Table/Advanced#Tables and visual editor|Tables and visual editor]], [[Help:Table/Advanced#Spreadsheet/database tables to wikitables|Spreadsheet/database tables to wikitables]], and [[Help:Table/Advanced#Add link brackets to text in each cell in a column|Add link brackets to text in each cell in a column]]. I think we should split those sections out into a page such as [[Help:Creating tables]], and then merge [[Wikipedia:Advanced table formatting]] with this page and the newly created page (I realize that page is older, but I think a help page belongs in the help namespace). Thoughts? <b style="font-family:Courier New;">[[User:HouseBlaster|House]][[Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster|<span style="color:#7D066B;">Blaster</span>]]</b><sup>[[User talk:HouseBlaster|talk]]</sup> 20:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
:{{u|HouseBlaster}}. Feel free to do so. Please do not delete anything yet though. Let's see what the 2 pages look like first. Also, then we will have separate histories for each page to see clearly what is then rewritten or deleted. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 20:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
::Only two weeks later, I have created [[Help:Creating tables]].<span id="HouseBlaster:1705614467267:Help_talkFTTCLNTable/Advanced" class="FTTCmt"> <b style="font-family:Courier New;">[[User:HouseBlaster|House]][[Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster|<span style="color:#7D066B;">Blaster</span>]]</b> ([[User talk:HouseBlaster|talk]] · he/him) 21:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)</span>
:::{{u|HouseBlaster}}. Thanks. I will not be able to help much the next week or two. You still need to remove the duplicate sections from [[Help:Table/Advanced]]. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 16:58, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

==Aligning table text to top of cells&quest;==
Is there help on when/how to align the body of text in table cells in css or wikipedia markup? I see this for image blocks.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Evanwolf|Evanwolf]] ([[User talk:Evanwolf#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Evanwolf|contribs]]) 21:10, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{replyto|Evanwolf}} It's not part of table syntax; you need to use CSS styling. See below.
{| class=wikitable
|+ Demo of vertical alignment
|-
|Three<br />lines<br />of text
|No alignment (default)
|style="vertical-align:top;" |Top-aligned
|style="vertical-align:middle;" |Middle-aligned
|style="vertical-align:bottom;" |Bottom-aligned
|}
:Documentation is [//www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-vertical-align here]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:00, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
{{outdent|::}}
See: '''[[Help:Table#Vertical alignment in cells]]'''. The CSS can be applied to a cell or a row. 

Adjusted and simplified the wikitext. People using [[screen readers]] don't like breaks <nowiki><br></nowiki> in header text ("Three lines of text"). 
<syntaxhighlight lang=wikitext>
{| class=wikitable
|+ Demo of vertical alignment
|-
|style=max-width:3em |Three lines of text
|No alignment (default)
|style=vertical-align:top |Top-aligned
|style=vertical-align:middle |Middle-aligned
|style=vertical-align:bottom |Bottom-aligned
|}
</syntaxhighlight>
{| class=wikitable
|+ Demo of vertical alignment
|-
|style=max-width:3em |Three lines of text
|No alignment (default)
|style=vertical-align:top |Top-aligned
|style="vertical-align:middle |Middle-aligned
|style="vertical-align:bottom |Bottom-aligned
|}

I just found this template I did not know about: 
*'''[[Template:Vertical align rows]]'''
It allows one to set all rows in a table to be either top or bottom aligned. 

The HTML attribute '''valign''' is allowed, but obsolete. See: '''[[Help:HTML in wikitext#Tables]].'''
--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 03:58, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
:"Three lines of text" isn't header text. It's just another data cell on the same row that just happens to come first. I purposely didn't mention the <code>valign</code> attribute, because it's obsolete in HTML5 (i.e. since 28 October 2014, just over ten years ago), and was deprecated more than 27 years ago (HTML 4.0, 18 December 1997 to be exact). Nobody should be using it in new tables. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 08:59, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

=== Line breaks in table cells ===

::Oops. Not header text. I think though that people with [[screen readers]] also don't like breaks in data cells in the middle of a sentence or phrase like "Three lines of text". --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 16:08, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Let's ask an expert. {{u|Graham87}}, how do screen readers interpret the {{tag|br|s}} tag? Is it as newlines, as spaces, or as something else? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:39, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
::::As newlines. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 08:32, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::{{ty}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:29, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Graham87}} Thanks. How does your screen reader indicate newlines? I want this for the help pages so people see why that newlines in the wrong places can hurt accessibility. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 11:22, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
::::::By creating a new line at the point of the br tag. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 13:19, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
{{outdent|:::::::}}
{{re|Graham87}} - I mean what does the screen reader say when it comes upon a br tag? --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 00:45, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:It doesn't say anything. It just ... shows that there's a new line. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 03:36, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::{{re|Graham87}} As the screen reader reads aloud "Three lines of text" in that cell using br tags does it pause at the line breaks? Is that annoying? 
::I did some reading: 
::https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+screen+readers+indicate+a+new+line+or+line+break 
::https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32204760/use-of-br-and-accessibility
::In the above link there seem to be various methods to eliminate that pause. Such as: 
::<code><nowiki><br aria-hidden=true /></nowiki></code>
::But that is too much to expect of average table editors who often use breaks in header cells. 
::'''[[Template:Break lines]]''' can add line breaks. Shortcut: '''{{t|brl}}'''
::'''Wikitext:'''
<syntaxhighlight lang=wikitext>
{{brl|Three
lines
of text}}
</syntaxhighlight>
::'''Produces:''' 
::{{brl|Three
lines
of text}}
::Maybe [[WP:VPT]]
::Can come up with a variation of {{t|brl}} that uses
::<code><nowiki><br aria-hidden=true /></nowiki></code>
::Maybe {{t|brh}} - short for [[Template:Line break hidden]]
::That would be easier to use than <code>style=max-width:3em</code>
::Max-width requires fiddling with different widths to make it work. 
::--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 11:57, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:::Nope, my screen reader doesn't pause between new lines during say all by default (though it can be set that way). Honestly I'd rate the importance of extra line breaks for accessibility in cases like this about 0.01 out of 10, at the very most. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 12:19, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::::{{re|Graham87}} That's good to know. It makes things easier for table editors. So if screen readers nowadays ignore line breaks <nowiki><br></nowiki> by default, then table editors can just keep on adding line breaks to header and other cells. I will note that somewhere in the table help pages. Soon, I hope. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 12:49, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:::::I never said they ignore line breaks (say all is a reading mode; a lot of people (including me) often read by arrowing up and down a page, or some other way). I think it's best to just leave things as they are. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 13:58, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::::::{{re|Graham87}} OK. Will do. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 14:25, 2 February 2025 (UTC)