Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brasher warning

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎ at the new title of Pilot deviation. I would normally suggest waiting till an AfD has been completed to move a page, so as not to mess up documentation, but no harm done. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:42, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Brasher warning

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Does not seem to be independently notable. ~~Level bust seems like a likely redirect/merge target.~~ Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A level bust is only one type of pilot deviation out of many, and therefore not a good redirect or merge target. It is like redirecting Fruit to Banana. I've heard ATC issue Brasher warnings for things like departing in the opposite direction and landing on the wrong runway. Polygnotus (talk) 08:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Polygnotus: Thanks for the clarification. Are there any other plausible redirect targets? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Pi.1415926535: I've watched a lot of VASAviation and played around with MSFS but I am not an expert. I don't think there are any plausible redirect/merge targets. I think the WP:COMMONNAME would be pilot deviation. While Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary it is probably possible to write an article about pilot deviations (but I haven't done a full WP:BEFORE check, and I am not qualified to write such an article). Perhaps someone from the Aviation wikiproject can help? Polygnotus (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I have added another source into the article. This should suffice. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 15:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Beeblebrox ^Beebletalks 23:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Polygnotus asked for my opinion at User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#Brasher warning. I would suggest that if it is kept it's moved to Pilot Deviation Notification, Pilot deviation notification, Pilot deviation or whatever is used worldwide and that "Brasher warning" is an American nickname for the term. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 13:16, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Pilot deviation notification with a redirect. "Brasher notification" is used only in the US, while the more general term is used world-wide. Risker (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Risker: The scope of pilot deviation is a bit bigger than pilot deviation notification so I think that pilot deviation is a better article title. The notification itself is usually just ATC telling you to write down a telephone number. Polygnotus (talk) 21:20, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes. But the content we currently have available relates strictly to pilot deviation notification, not the general topic. Now, if someone with sufficient knowledge was to write an article about pilot deviation, then yes, pilot deviation notification should be one section of it. We don't have that article now, but we *do* have enough content that, with a few minor changes, would be a reasonable article on pilot deviation notification. I don't personally have sufficient knowledge to write such an article, but it wouldn't surprise me if one or more participants in this discussion do have that knowledge. Risker (talk) 23:00, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Right now we have three sentences - just a definition and etymology. Only one other article links here, and only one other even includes the phrase "pilot deviation". Until and unless someone is able to flesh this out into a substantive article, I think merging to something like Aviation safety#Human factors (or moving to wiktionary) would be better. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:21, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Pi.1415926535: Nah if you want to merge then maybe to Pilot error (although some pilot deviations are very intentional). But if "Pilot error" does not fall under WP:NOTDICT then pilot deviation does neither methinks. Polygnotus (talk) 03:57, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Pilot decision making#Difficulties? I suppose the warning is technically a result of difficulties rather than a type of difficulty, but this seems more to be a decision-making situation rather than a true error; as Polygnotus points out, sometimes it is a deliberate decision, although perhaps not a good one. Risker (talk) 05:18, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Pi.1415926535, Risker, CambridgeBayWeather, and Wikiexplorationandhelping: see below Polygnotus (talk) 16:08, 26 January 2025 (UTC) I assume that sticking very close to the source material isn't a problem because its the FAA and therefore copyright free? It is pretty difficult to be creative when conveying factual information. [reply]

Extended content

Pilot deviations are actions of a pilot that result in the violation of a Federal Aviation Regulation, often a failure to follow instructions from air traffic control.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Mar/AIRBORNE_PILOT_DEVIATIONS_-_GL_Region_FAASTeam_FY10_2nd_Qtr._Notice.pdf

Pilot deviations can be split in to ground- and airborne deviations.

Examples of airborne deviations are when a pilot strays from an assigned altitude or heading, or if they penetrate controlled airspace or restricted airspace without clearance.

Examples of groundbased deviations are taking off or landing without clearance, failing to hold short of a runway or deviating from an assigned taxi route.

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/2022-01/Avoiding%20Pilot%20Deviations.pdf

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 02:21, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Pi.1415926535, Risker, CambridgeBayWeather, and Wikiexplorationandhelping: I added some stuff and moved it. Not sure what the procedure is. Polygnotus (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Pilot deviation and (possibly) include a section on Brasher warnings. "Pilot deviation" seems to be the term for a pilot deviating from a flight plan, while "Brasher warning" refers to an ATC reporting a deviation/a pilot receiving a letter of investigation for a deviation. See the Aero Law Center page or the FAA's explanation of the ATC system (it's near the bottom). Ships & Space_(Edits) 02:55, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Started writing before move. Keep, as the above suggestions were implemented. Ships & Space_(Edits) 02:57, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work on this, Polygnotus. I have reached out to admins via discord to as for someone to review and close this discussion. Risker (talk) 15:16, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Polygnotus (talk) 15:42, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.