Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Archive 53

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Here we go again

Haven't we already seen Category:Comic characters adapted into the Marvel Cinematic Universe or something like it, at least a dozen times or more before? Is this a sock do you think, or could this be just a new person who thought they saw something that needed to exist? 2601:241:4280:161:7CB9:D7A6:1893:1E73 (talk) 04:54, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

The editor's first contribution was to create the category, and every edit since then has been to add characters to it. I'd wager it's a sock. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I opened a sock puppet investigation. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:24, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

schmidt-austin is still active?! He's been creating sock accounts for almost as long as I have been around on Wikipedia (which has been for YEARS). I don't understand why someone would be that committed and willing to sacrifice so much of their time just to categorise Wikipedia articles, only for it always get reversed. As an administrator told him in April 2018, when I spotted one of his socks, surely he must know by now that the categories will always get deleted. I assumed he had quit since then, but I'll keep an eye out. DarkKnight2149 22:22, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, CensoredScribe still shows up a lot. We've got a similar problem at the video game project with a user (who used to edit under a bunch of accounts named "Andy"/"Andrew") who always goes around adding fake release dates to articles only to be instantly reverted. JOEBRO64 23:32, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

For reference, since the user was banned back in 2014, is it necessary to semi-protect some articles to prevent further disruption? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:44, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think so. They're almost always instantly reverted. We basically have this place on lockdown. JOEBRO64 00:52, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

I figured they would be reverted, immune to WP:3RR. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:57, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, five years. Yikes! I remember reverting his categories and participating in discussions about them as early as 2015/2016. I last spotted one of his socks in April 2018 and reported it to the proper SPI. I assumed he would have given up by now, but then I noticed this thread and checked his SPI page... He's been cranking out socks regularly since then :/ DarkKnight2149 01:36, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Is it possible to blacklist certain titles of categories? Is so, perhaps we could use that to blacklist variations of "Category:X-Men franchise characters" and the like before he creates them. Or that the very least, have them creation-protected. DarkKnight2149 01:51, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

I can ask an admin to sprinkle some salt on 'em. I'll try to start a list of these categories he creates as well so we know what to watch. JOEBRO64 01:54, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Or since it's been five years, we could travel through their edit history to collect Infinity Stones, forge a new gauntlet, and snap to make all the dumbass categories he creates vanish. JOEBRO64 02:00, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Is there an administrator that most deals with this user? Looking at the SPI, Ponyo, Bbb23, MarnetteD, and NinjaRobotPirate show up a few times. If we can compile a list of titles of the categories that are constantly having to be deleted, perhaps one of them can create-protect the categories (and any title variations) as proposed?

I'm not an administrator but it seems like a better idea than constantly playing wack-a-mole until this user gets tired... Which, at this rate, is never (It almost feels like these categories are his life's work, with the rate that he has shown up in the last half-decade). DarkKnight2149 05:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

There's the title blacklist, but I don't know if the categories CensoredScribe creates would work as a regular expression. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:08, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: That's why I think create-protection would be a better option. But I'm not an administrator; maybe there's something I'm not considering? Doing so would mean that no one can re-create these categories without discussion, but that's already the consensus to begin with. CensoredScribe/Schmidt-austin is also absurdly relentless when it comes to creating these sock accounts just to create the same categories that everyone firmly agrees shouldn't exist (which has led to some editors, including myself in a couple of instances, spending hours across hundreds of articles reverting the categories). DarkKnight2149 02:11, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

What categories is he recreating? If I notice it, I usually salt pages if they're repeatedly recreated by sock puppets. If he's creating the same general type of category with a different name each time, salting them won't really do anything. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:28, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

He recreates the exact same categories, but he often uses different variations of the names of the same categories whenever possible so that we don't notice they were recreated. There's only so many names possible for a single category, however. We can create a list of the ones he has used and link it to you. DarkKnight2149 06:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

A list of titles might be useful to determine whether the title blacklist can be used. However, if he's repeatedly getting caught because the title is obvious, forcing him to learn to be sneakier might not be the best solution. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:36, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I think we're already passed that point. Over the course of years, he is already doing everything he can to not get caught. That's why he started thinking of different variations for the names of the same categories to begin with. And when your entire M.O. hinges on going back and re-adding those categories to the exact same articles, you can only be so sneaky. DarkKnight2149 17:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Here's a start: User:TheJoebro64/sandbox/CensoredScribe categories JOEBRO64 23:30, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Channel on WP:Discord

A few of us over at the Webcomics work group happen to frequent the Wikimedia Discord server quite a lot, and we are considering asking the moderators there to create a space (channel) specifically for our discussions. ferret (talk · contribs) suggested we'd ask the larger project if they are interested first, though. This would involve a certain level of activity on Discord and a banner on the WikiProject page. If there isn't enough interest here, I suppose we'll make it a purely webcomics-focused one. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 13:14, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Is the Phoenix Force a "supervillain"?

Just asking[1]. I am of the opinion that cosmic entities like the Phoenix, or Galactus, etc, are beyond such classifications, but I could be wrong. 2600:1700:E820:1BA0:142D:D882:130F:3CEB (talk) 21:25, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia uses sources and outside universe perspective. Then yes I would see it ok at least as a category. For example: Dark Phoenix being ranked as the top comic book supervillain by IGN. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 03:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm not fond of it, but I guess I can live with that logic until a better idea comes along. 24.13.141.28 (talk) 04:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

"The Rape of Ms. Marvel"

This series of edits is concerning me; is that independent commentary "POV-pushing", as the editor suggests? 2601:241:4280:161:DDA9:A4FF:741:DFFD (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

No, and User:Logan3043 was mistaken when saying the page "doesn't exist" because an archive link is available. I have restored the material. Hopefully Logan will discuss here (or on the talk page). Argento Surfer (talk) 15:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

New article on Frank Cirocco

I have created an article on Frank Cirocco, a comics artist and video game designer. Within the comics industry, he is best know as the co-creator of the Alien Legion series for Epic Comics. Cirocco has worked in the video game business for several decades but I have no proper reference sources for his extensive contributions in that field. Anyone who has expertise and reliable sources for the history of video game design/development is welcome to expand the new article. Your assistance is greatly appreciated! Mtminchi08 (talk) 03:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Two things

1. Swamp Thing (2019 TV series) has been canceled after one episode. Several pages will require update:
   • The article about the series itself
   • 2019 in American television — I'm too scared to do this one; here's why.
   • Template:DC Universe programming
   • Any other pages that mention the series and its airing
   • List of television series canceled after one episode
2. Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/DC Comics work group/Cleanup listing has not been updated since 2016. The last edit by a bot was in 2010, when WolterBot (talk · contribs) was retired. Its intended replacement, CleanupWorklistBot (talk · contribs), last edited in 2014 and was never approved for use on enwiki. As a result, it has fallen into disrepair — for instance, several pages (such as Powers and abilities of Superman in May 2018) have been deleted since being listed. Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/Marvel Comics work group/Cleanup listing is also due for an extensive update. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:34, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

A current clean up listing for the comics project as a whole can be found here. I don't know if there's a page for the publisher workgroups. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:38, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Merger discussion of Bob Morane

I have started a discussion of whether Les tours de cristal should be merged into Bob Morane (comics) if anyone is interested please join at Talk:Bob Morane (comics) Dwanyewest (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Tense for IOM appearances

Just curious for what the consensus would be. User:Btpowers91 has been going around for some time changing "This character appears in this movie/game/whatever" to "This character appeared in this movie/game/whatever" or "This actor portrays" to "This actor portrayed". I for one thought that since we use present tense for fictional descriptions, should we not also use that for appearances outside of the main fiction? As in, whenever you read a comic, watch a movie or TV show, or play a game, those events are happening (over and over again, as it may be) while you are viewing them, rather than considering them past events? I'm not sure though, so I figured I would bring it up here. 76.231.73.99 (talk) 12:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

In universe descriptions use present tense. "Han Solo rescues Luke Skywalker from freezing on Hoth." Real world uses past tense. Harrison Ford and Mark Hammill reprised their roles as Han Solo and Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.

Mtminchi08 (talk) 16:24, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I was not sure. 76.231.73.99 (talk) 00:26, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as Lightforce?

As in the opposite and equal to Darkforce presumably? User:Penguin7812 has added this to Cloak and Dagger (comics)[2] and Darkforce[3] without citation, making it impossible to tell if this is an actual thing from the comics, or if it is WP:OR. 76.231.73.99 (talk) 13:13, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

The better question: Why does that article exist? --Izno (talk) 15:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

That may be your question, but mine remains unanswered. If a concept does not even exist in the comics, we should not be mentioning it at all. 76.231.73.99 (talk) 00:26, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

[4] Penguin7812 (talk) 05:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Should we call Shang-Chi a superhero?

As per this edit? 68.99.79.11 (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Just from looking at other pages, it appears that "fictional superhero" is the normal term to use. Also--the definition isn't a question of neutrality, but rather accurately describing a fictional character with superhuman powers. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 01:03, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

"character" is the preferred word. "Hero" might be obvious for some characters, but there have been countless edit wars over "anti-hero", "anti-villain", and the like. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:48, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I think this was the last time it was discussed. Consensus wasn't as clear as I remember, but I might be thinking of another conversation. With keywords like character and superhero, the topic isn't easily searched. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:53, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I reverted it to just "character" again. 8.37.179.254 (talk) 00:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Possible MoS proposal on fictional characters

There's a discussion regarding a potential WP:MOS on all fictional characters. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Manual of Style for fictional characters?. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:51, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

A few new categories

Are these legit character categories? 68.99.79.11 (talk) 04:31, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

@Cwf97: Have a look at this. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:02, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment request: Fiend-ship Is Magic

There's an ongoing dispute regarding My Little Pony: Fiend-ship Is Magic at Talk:My Little Pony (IDW Publishing)#One-off or not.. Although it ran for five issues, Fiend-ship was published alongside Friendship Is Magic (IDW's primary publication) and Friends Forever (the secondary publication at that time), it did not replace Friends Forever as a secondary title outright, and all its issues were published within the month of April 2015. So I view Fiend-ship as a one-off publication like annuals, Holiday Special, and other specials. But someone thinks otherwise, and claims Fiend-ship should be considered as a secondary title along the lines of Micro-series, Friends Forever, Legends of Magic, Ponyville Mysteries and Nightmare Knights. Care to give a comment? JSH-alive/^{talk/cont/mail} 12:53, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Actors in lead sections

Just perusing various comics related pages and noticed that someone seems very keen on inserting lead section paragraphs on character pages, naming actors in (usually recent) movie adaptations, usually in the form "made his/her cinematic debut...". This often follows mentions of other media appearances, but no other voice actors etc are usually mentioned, privileging movies over all other media, even the original comics. The original creators, or relevant historical creators, are rarely mentioned in these lead sections. Just actors.

Perhaps it is relevant in some cases, but even minor appearances like Mac Gargan in a recent movie are placed in the lead. Isn't the "In other media" section the proper place for this? Otherwise, why are only movie actors considered important enough for the lead section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.182.48.158 (talk) 05:36, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Creators should be mentioned in lead sections. The lead should also mention the types of other media the character has appeared in. If the film actor(s) are the only ones with blue links, I would be inclined to only use their names. These seem like areas for improvement though, not additions that should be reverted. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Kree: Does this sentence make sense?

"Yahn Rgg and Ro-Nan also appears in this reality where he is the Ultimate Universe version of Yon-Rogg and Ronan." Reading that sentence straight on, it doesn't seem to make much sense. Are we talking about two characters, or one character with two identities? If we are talking about two characters, why are we using "appears" and "he is" instead of "appear" and "they are"? If we are talking about one character, why isn't this rewritten to make that clearer? I certainly am confused by this sentence, how about you? Perhaps User:Penguin7812 can explain the intention on keeping it reading in such a format[5]? 2601:241:4280:161:C03A:7EE:6362:F5B1 (talk) 11:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. The source provided doesn't support the claim that's being made (that they are Ultimate versions of Yon-Rogg and Ronan). Argento Surfer (talk) 12:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Ah, a non-issue then. Hopefully User:Penguin7812 understands why you made the edit you made. I see this sort of thing all the time, you know, such and such is an alternate version of such and such, or inspired by, or whatever. Most of the time I leave it alone, but sometimes you really need a source to prove it. 8.37.179.254 (talk) 15:46, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Nyx article?

Hello guys, I have been thinking about creating a article about Nyx, the main villain of Avengers No Road Home, most specifically this character [6]. I think the character should be mentioned in Wikipedia, but I don't if it should as a article or as a section in List of Marvel Comics characters: N. What do you think? Penguin7812 (talk) 05:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with this specific character, but my general rules can be seen here. Argento Surfer (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry I already finished that, Nyx (Marvel Comics). Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 10:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Appropriate?

An editor has been adding a paragraph to dozen of articles along the lines of this example from Al Williamson:

Williamson was one of the artists photographed in his studio for The Artist Within: Book 2: Behind the Lines ISBN 978-0692917565 by photographer Greg Preston, published in 2017.

References

It's always referencing one of two books in the The Artist Within series, and the strong majority are comics creator pages (there are some animation and other artists, but it leans comics enough that this seems the relevant project.) I want people's input on whether this is appropriate. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

As the editor in question, please find I started adding the info (with appropriate references) about The Artist Within to the various pages of those artists who agreed to be in the project not as promotional - but as a reference point, because the books document those artists within their creative working spaces. In that many of those artists have now passed, the collection of artists within the books serves as an important reference point of popular artists of the 20th century. It has become enough of a reference point, that venues such as the Academy Awards, the Eisner Awards, and publications such as The Atlantic Magazine, The Washington Post, and Newsday have utilized the portraits within it. While studios and processes are sometimes described within some artists wikipedia pages/articles, the Artist Within collection of the two books uniquely documents those artists and their individual creative workspaces. I hold that 1. being included with the overall collection of artists assembled is significant and not trivial, and 2. That the portraits of the artists within and depicting their native studio spaces is also significant as documentary reference on those individual artists and how they work/worked. My edits were perceived as being promotional when that was not the intention, and would like to seek discussion and consensus if the information is appropriate, and how it may be included. I suggested perhaps reworking the original sentence and including it as a book citation? Thank you for your thoughts. Martinishot77 (talk) 00:21, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Being included in these books isn't like being in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, receiving an Oscar, or some other curated professional honor, which speaks to their notability. It's one photographer's choice of whom to photograph for his book, and the fact that these artists sat for him tells the reader more about his notability than it does about theirs (which is established by the rest of their articles), which makes the insertion of it into those articles smell like spam. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

References for more information about the subjects of articles are not generally placed in article text. They are either included as references for statements of significance about the subject (and as you've shown no such information to be gleaned from these books, do not try adding them thusly), or in Further Reading or External Links sections (and again, adding this book to a significant number of articles even in those ways would come across as promotional.) The subjects of the articles that you are adding these to are generally people who have been covered via interviews and histories in a number of sources; the inclusion in this one pair of books does not stand out as being worthy of special notice. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:02, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

I would challenge that I'm not sure that being included in the collection isn't an honor, since it is a collection of arguably many of the most noted popular culture artists of the 20th century. That said, I understand the concerns of the information seeming promotional or spammy when added across multiple pages, and thus in coversation Nat Gertler asked for this discussion to be opened. Again, what I do hold that the photographic documentary aspect of the individual artist(s) within their working creative space is what makes it a unique and significant reference point for an encyclopedic article on that individual artist(s) and their work, but understand if that may not be everyone's POV. Nat Gertler as I mentioned before, I have not and will not be adding any more edits with regard to this topic until some consensus is reached. I'm not seeking to to violate Wiki policy or precipitate edit wars. Thanks again for your thoughts and candor.Martinishot77 (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

It is absolutely not a noted honor, like an Oscar is; it's a single individuals selection among the people they were able to get, and that person doesn't seem to be of any particular notable influence.

I should also note that even if the second book had any information that might be of use on a page, we could not use it as reference in most cases. It's a self-published volume, and we are barred from using self-published sources for information about living or recently dead people (unless it's self-published by the person in question). --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Finding no support for the poster's view that these are appropriate additions (and with my hand slowly getting better - that was slowing me up from doing things), I am resuming deletion of these additions. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

This seems like a clear case of WP:REFBOMB; see the first bulleted example in particular. REFBOMB is an essay, not a policy, but I strongly agree that sources should be used only to verify meaningful content about the subject, and not hitch a ride on statements which amount to no more than "The article subject is mentioned in the cited source."--NukeofEarl (talk) 19:02, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Chameleon allegedly in the new Spider-Man movie?

After discussing at Talk:Spider-Man: Far From Home#Does the Chameleon appear in this movie? and getting no response from User:Hhggtg3279 who would rather edit-war[7][8] than discuss his sources, it is clear to me that it is mere speculation to say that the Chameleon appears in Spider-Man: Far From Home in any capacity. All the sources I have seen which try to claim that a character named Dmitri is actually Chameleon have a lot of "may be" and "we think" sort of speculative talk - in other words, I have not seen a source which can confirm that this is the same character instead of just some random character who happens to be associate of fake-Fury. So, how do we determine that this Dimitri is really supposed to be an extremely low-key supervillain, using such dubious sources as "Blasting News", and then the link to comicbookmovie.com which says things like "May Introduce A Different Take On Chameleon", and notes that the director said "We're not specifically saying that he's...but we're not not saying." and somehow this user is translating that into proof that it was definitely the same character? Do we even have a source on the character's last name in the film being the same as the character's last name from the comics? Alternately, there is the ScreenRant link, which says "This immediately tipped off Marvel fans that he could be playing Dmitri Smerdyakov, better known as classic Spider-Man foe Chameleon. This role was never confirmed to be who Acar was playing, but we learned some surprising details about him." So, again, do the sources support the assertion that this is the same character? It looks to me like these sources are just speculating, and that there is no official confirmation and the movie doesn't identify him as such. Meanwhile, if my assertions are correct, then the user needs to stop edit-warring to include this information and find better sources to confirm his viewpoint. 2600:1700:E820:1BA0:4AF1:7FFF:FEE5:C031 (talk) 15:12, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Smerdyakov is not the only Marvel character with the name Dmitri, though he is the one most closely connected to Spider-Man. See here.

The most notable of the others is Dmitri Bukharin, the longest-serving character to use the Crimson Dynamo identity. Dimadick (talk) 12:55, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Looks to me like there's no conclusive proof, but the creators are keeping their options open if they want to use him as that character. However, unless there's a reliable source stating that this is definitely the creators intention, we shouldn't put it in articles, per WP:CRYSTALBALL. --Killer Moff (talk) 16:07, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Please don't put spoilers for recent films in your subsection title because this page shows up on people's watch page. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:21, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Template:Thor family tree

I have updated the Template:Thor family tree with its new current members. However, User:TriiipleThreat keeps reverting it to its original outdated form. We need to solve this as I don't see a reason why not to include these members of Thor's family as they're legit members and deserve to be in the main body and not just mentions. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 11:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

My understanding of the dispute, just from reading the edit summaries, is that it has to do with the need for sourcing rather than the inclusion or exclusion of the family members.--NukeofEarl (talk) 15:36, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

No, the source is actually there if check the template. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 16:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The source cited for the actual tree does not mention these characters. Penguin7812 is using WP:OR for their placement. Is Cull Odin’s youngest brother? Is Angela older than Loki? Etc. That’s why these characters are mentioned in the notes and not in the actual tree.—TriiipleThreat (talk) 22:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@TriiipleThreat:. I'm not doing original research. Who said that the placement judged the age of the characters. Plus, Cul is the younger brother of Odin and we don't know the age of Angela so she may be older than Loki. This tree needs to be updated, similar to Template:Venom family tree. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 05:21, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Who said that the placement judged the age of the characters. That’s how family trees work. They read top down and left to right. It’s best just to mirror the actual source. These new characters are still mentioned in prose, so no information is lost. I have no idea what’s going on in Template:Venom family tree. That looks like a mess.—TriiipleThreat (talk) 10:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Does this fact also aply for Template:Skywalker family tree and Template:Flintstones family tree? And don't make fun of me, I'm trying to solve this argument with polite, its not my fault that I don't how most things work, since I'm still learning about this. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 12:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

They should. Whether or they do is another question. I’m not making fun of you but I am not sure using a family tree is the best way show the relationship between symbiots since it appears that their family structure / reproduction is so different than our own.—-TriiipleThreat (talk) 11:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, these family trees need to go as being expressly how we shouldn't write about fiction. But that wouldn't fit the MO of the persons in this section I suspect. :) --Izno (talk) 13:47, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Actually, these are all the Fictional family tree templates in Wikipedia. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 14:16, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I would stop, if you showed a me a proper reason why my edits are wrong, since I don't see a reason why. If you or a admin could tell the proper and convincing reason, then I'll stop. Also, I don't see any other editor who supports your reasoning. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 13:41, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

@TriiipleThreat:, we're still talking. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 11:38, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we are. I don’t have a problem with the use of family trees in articles about fiction in general, if the article is plainly and clearly described as a work of fiction. However, as stated earlier, I’m not convinced that a family tree is the best fit for Venom.—TriiipleThreat (talk) 09:17, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

This discussion is about the Thor Template not Venom. I want you, along with other editors to provide me a proper reason, why my edits on the Template:Thor family tree are wrong. If you can't or won't give me the reason, then I will edit the template again. I'm asking just this. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 09:45, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I did. Also discussion doesn’t work like that. As the person who wishes to make the bold change the burden is on you to gather consensus in support of that change.—TriiipleThreat (talk) 09:57, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Aight, @Argento Surfer: @Jhenderson777: @Bd2412:, do you support my change about the Template:Thor family tree? Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 10:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think any of the trees linked from this discussion are worth including. Relevant family should be named and linked in the prose. I don't see how a diagram will help readers. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:38, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Actually, there is a family section in the List of Thor (Marvel Comics) supporting characters. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 13:22, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Ok, so a diagram helps on that page. It doesn't need to be a template placed on the page of every character named in it. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:39, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Yea you right. These Templates are actually kind of useless, since there are sections on articles already talking about these subjects, why not just delete them? I actually would support this. Once the consensus is reached, I will discuss the deletion of these Templates on the talk page. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 16:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

see Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 July 12 Frietjes (talk) 13:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Brother Voodoo

Is this a WP:CRYSTAL violation? 8.37.179.254 (talk) 20:45, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Seems to be. Crystal #5 says it is not a collection of rumors. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 00:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Even if it weren't crystal, it still wouldn't be worth including. Lots of characters get discussed when these films are being made. It's not notable until they're confirmed and cast. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:17, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Lex Luthor

This page might need some looking into. I can’t edit war with him. I just wanted factual information. Not just what DC said. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 16:19, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing it anywhere outside of edit summaries? The account hasn't edited outside of that article. The information should be restored to the stable status quo until the dispute is resolved.

I'll check some of my price guides tonight and see how they list the information. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:48, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

It is important to note that even the Grand Comics database backs what I am saying. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 16:51, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Mik’s amazing world of comic has a source for its on sale date. You can see the source by the magnifying glass 🔍 Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 16:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Grand Comics Database is peer editable just like Wikipedia. It is not a legitimate reference. It is ironic that this other user isn't interested in "what DC says:, given that they created the character. Of course, it's not just DC, it is also Overstreet, CGC, CBCS, and pretty much every comic book oriented database you can find online. Literally the only thing the other user tries to use- in contravention of all of the above other, actually factual sources- is Mikesamazingworld.com, which of course if you click the magnifying glass the other user tells you to, specifically states that "publication dates are NOT release dates", and that DC did not even release official release dates until 1958. Which is why "Mike" only gives "Approximate" release dates. Given that the other user is trying to edit Wikipedia to be in direct opposition to all known and accepted comic book authorities (Overstreet, CGC, CBCS), as well as DC Comics themselves: https://www.dcuniverse.com/encyclopedia/lex-luthor/ he should be required to come up with a much less flimsy citation that does not even actually say what he was attempting to edit. -jaydubp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydubp (talk • contribs) 19:51, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Please just stick to this page and please use Wp:tildes. I am going to be busy for a bit so maybe other people can weigh in. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 19:54, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

You do realize I never said that Action Comics #23 wasn’t the first appearance right? You keep acting like I do. It’s not like any of my edits removed it from the first appearance. I even said that most sources cite it as first appearance. So therefore I was inclusive with it. I just have a concern that the other comic was released first. We may need further digging. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 19:58, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

@Jhenderson777: Can we uninvolved get a...TL;DR for what's going on here? Reading that edit history was... interesting. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 20:01, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Later...unfortunately I am off to work. Yes it’s been interesting. lol. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:04, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Roger that...about to board a flight myself. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 20:06, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I may have a little bit of time. Basically he is disputing this one edit I made. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:09, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

According to the 41st edition of Overstreet, Action 23 is the first appearance, and Superman 4 is second appearance. Both entries note that it's with red hair.

According to the 57th issue of Wizard, Action 23 is the first appearance, there was no information with the value fore Superman 4.

I could not locate any mention of Luthor's first appearance in Jones or Benton.

At this time, I do not think Mike's Amazing World is reliable enough to warrant adding the release date claim to the article. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah the source is only going by newsstand date. Which is the only thing that states it earlier. So I am going to remove it and a similar claim in Cheetah (comics). I only assumed this was a Sandman (Wesley Dodds) type of first appearance which happens every now and then. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 13:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Ok so a similar claim that I placed in Cheetah (comics) is removed. Since same source and all. @Argento Surfer: Is there any sources that can also confirm newsstand date. So I can nip this in the bud once and for all. I don’t see how Mike finds the sources for newsstand date but I am curious. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 13:47, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

An unreliable source but a well summarized read IMO. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 13:58, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Newsstand dates for most Golden Age comics are just about impossible to pin down. Publishers were inconsistent on how far out their cover dates went and they were low priority for distributors who didn't always get them delivered to newsstands at the first available opportunity. One of the few ways to confirm a release date is through an in-house ad promoting a new book, which is where the release date for Action Comics 1 came from. User:Tenebrae and I discussed this at one point, but I'm having trouble locating the conversation. Argento Surfer (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

I figured it out. The supposed source that the website uses is an House ad of Action Comics #22. Page 14. Man I am slow sometimes. :p Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 14:21, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Venom/Symbiotes navbox

Hi, I've been trying to clean up the Template:Symbiote Family and Hosts to make them in line with how the vast majority of comic characters naboxes are formated (not including every single series/film/game that the character has apperead in for example) but another user keeps adding all this cruft back in. Last time it happened they reverted every single edit I had made to the template, even those which are unrelated to cruft links (such as the category link at the bottom) and called the version I had created a "mess" for whatever reason, while instead making this rather hard to read version with odd child boxes with small text instead of a propper use of subjeaders.★Trekker (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh yeah, just put the a single section named hosts, so no reader will be able to know which person had hosted which symbiote and also remove those video games and storyline where the symbiote species play a major role in, because it's just "too much". Yeah great "idea". No just kidding, I totally disagree with you. You could check the Template:Skrull and Template:Kree as have suggested. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 15:45, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I am the creator of said Navbox. So I feel that Spider-Man 3 belongs but not Spider-Man tv shows/ comics books outside of episode or story arcs that center on symbiotes.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 15:51, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I have to disagree with Spider-Man 3 being there, if we did that we would have to create a standard where in a character playes a decent part in a story we include it in their navbox we're going to be overflooded with minor cruft in navboxes. We have already decided that the Captain America: Civil War film shall not be included in the Spider-Man in film or Iron Man navboxes because of this reason, despite them being a major part of the film.★Trekker (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Your passive agressive sarcasm isn't going to impress anyone. And neither of those templates should honestly really need to exist that way in my opinion at all. Just because you managed to find two other bad templates that doesn't make the Symbiotes templates less bad in it's current shape. Also, how come you keep reverting back to the barely readable version of the navbox with the miniature childboxes inside of other boxes instead of just trying to at least use the version that existed first that looked decent?★Trekker (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and been bold and removed the "other media" cruft from the Kree and Skrull templates, character navboxes should only include media in which the character is the focal point of the work, otherwise it's going to turn into navboxes simply being borderline articles instead of navigational tools. At one time Penguin I used to feel the same as you, that any media where a character playes a part should be linked, but then as years pased by I realized how unwieldy that becomes.★Trekker (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to leave this up to other editors now. I feel like I have said my piece and have nothing to add. Others on this project can decide if this navbox will be overturned, get special exception or if our standards for navboxes should be overall changed, in any case I would like to see consistency on this subject. Happy editing.★Trekker (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

If your idea is to remove the in other media section of Template then I'm OK with that, but I do disagree with the host section since it still need clarification. Look, I recently had a similar pretty heated discussion over Templates with TriiipleThreat, as you may see above, and it ended in pretty bad terms and I don't want to end up in the same. I'm sorry for the sarcasm, I just wanted to joke a bit. I hope this ends well. Thank you for reading this. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 17:49, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Spider-Man 3 literally was centered on Spider-Man having the symbiote suit and technically was the main antagonist throughout the film. Someone might feel different about that though. I welcome any opinion. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 17:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Plus, I wouldn't call those Template bad, since they're Fictional species Templates just like this one. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 12:43, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Origin of Batman

Just giving a shoutout to anyone who can maybe help out or expand on this article. It’s off to a rusty start.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 04:47, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I slapped a GOCE tag to remind myself to take a look at it. I'll try to do it in the next day or so. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 05:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Jhenderson777: OK, I just did some surface level copy-editing. It looks mostly good. The article does feel a bit repetitive, so you might want to find ways to address that. At points I was deleting the same sentences repeated verbatim in different sections. Also, for the Dark Victory comment, you should really cite where it came from so you don't get revdeleted for copyright violation. Lastly, check out WP:CITEKILL. There are a lot of places in here where there are really too many citations. 4 or 5 at a time is just too much. BUT overall it's good. Nice work here. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 20:31, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Appreciate the suggestions and input. I only take credit to the reception section though for the most part. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 16:01, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Danny Figeroth's book "Superman on the Couch" had a chapter on Batman and other orphans and why they resonated so strongly with everyone. There might be some insights there that can expand the analysis section. You can view some excerpts of it here (page 64, if the link doesn't take you straight there). Argento Surfer (talk) 16:37, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

StickFigure1993

I am concerned that the user StickFigure1993 may be a sockpuppet. Either way all he does seem to be doing is adding fancruft in navboxes. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 16:04, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Seems like @*Treker: had a few warnings with him too. But I am concerned an editor like that doesn’t listen. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 16:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I try to remove as much fancruft as I can on navboxes, but I can't say I remember this specific editor, but their patern is very familiar.★Trekker (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)