Talk:Polyrhythm

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Meshuggah

The death metal band Meshuggah also have complex polyrhythms in their music.

Not really. They're mostly dealing in polymetrics; odd-metered (like 11/16, 23/16 and 13/8 and so forth), repeating "cells" over 4/4, repeated x many times so they resolve over 4/4 (which the snare and crash/stack cymbals keep steady). Some pure polyrhythms here and there but not really complex at all.

Ah, but all polymetres are polyrhythmic! NcLean

They're not dealing in polytempo. Frank Zappa would be a much better example, or drummers like Pete Magadini and Virgil Donati.

It could be argued that Meshuggah isn't a DEATH metal band either, but that's sort of splitting hairs. I'd just write "metal band".

Go ahead and make the changes in the article :) Be bold! Dysprosia 07:18, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Polyrhythm, polymetrics, cross-rhythm, hemiola

Polyrhythm can be used to describe several effects, not only the one described in the article. In fact, "polyrhythmic" means nothing more than "more than one rhythm at the same time". As such, virtually every polyphonic work can be called polyrhythmic. There are several polyrhythmic devices though. They can be divided into three groups. The first one is "n against m", which means that while one part plays n time units, the other part play m time unit (e.g. "3 against 2", which means triplets, 3:2). This is the effect described in the article. The second one is "n in (over) m", which means that both parts use the same time unit, but one of them accents them in groups of n, while the other uses groups of m units. Hemioles and cross-rhythms, as well as polymetrics are manifestations of this. The last group is that of rhythmic displacement, meaning that a rhythmic fragment is played at an "inappropriate" moment. African music frequently features several patterns starting at different points in relation to each other. Of course, effects from all 3 groups can be combined and cascaded.

FZ and Peter Magadini are excellent examples. A simple example is Eric Dolphy playing Monk's 'Epistrophy'. He often used a repeating Db-Ab-Db-Eb-Bb-Eb (making it 6/8) for the bass and piano. Over that was the melody in 4/4 played by bass clarinet (usually) and drums. An example you can do right now is: tap out 4/4 with your foot and 3/4 with your hand so that the four foot-taps and the 3 hand-taps take the same amount of time to do. Each measure (and each note group and/or sub-group if it's FZ) of each time signature must take the same time to complete or it isn't a polyrhythm. cliard@hotmail.com

Please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 20:11, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You also may want to look at the Hemiola article, which explains that "A hemiola is not an example of a polyrhythm." As this article clarifies, a polyrhythm is the "simultaneous sounding of two or more independent rhythms" not successive sounding, as in a hemiola. Hyacinth 20:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Order of rhythms

please note: I have reversed the order of the rhythms in the exmples, placing the "quick" beats on the top, and the "slow" beats on the bottom. This is to allow people trying to learn these polyrhythms visually to associate which rhythm is played on which hand, and more easily distinguish the beat. If you find, however, that this a more difficult way of learning, please feel free to change things back.

--DrumMan 18:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural bias

I find it exceedingly curious that, in an article on polyrhythm, the first musician cited is Frank Zappa. Keep in mind that, hands down, the most rhythmically complex music known is commonly considered by musicologists to be West African. (The next, IMO, is likely the ragas of India.) It seems that some appropriate mention of the cultural context of the phenomenon is in order here -- perhaps a mention of how European classical music is, and much of Western music (before African/African-American influence) was, heavily linear and flat/unsyncopated. And how on earth one could mention Zappa and not, say, Babatunde Olatunji is absolutely absurd. deeceevoice 12:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one else saw fit to add anything about the true origins of polyrhythmic musical expression in Western music, I did so. It's outrageous to mention Zappa and white musicians and no mention of the source, Africa. Someone might also want to mention the ragas of India, where the sounds of the tabla correspond to spoken sounds. deeceevoice 02:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that most European classical music is linear and unsyncopated, bit I think that statements such as "By contrast, most traditional European music has a flat linearity" don't mean much without a jargon decoder. Can someone please rephrase this? NcLean 13th September 2006

[The most likely reason that Mr. Zappa's name was mentioned first as a user of polyrhythms (see article above) is that this is an encyclopaedia. The purpose of the articles here is explanation. Most readers will be more familiar with Western music than with that from other areas of the world. Mr. Zappa frequently played rock music - a particularly popular type. Thus, while perhaps not musicologically correct, it is didactically correct to use music that is as familiar as possible to readers as a source of examples. cliard@hotmail.com]

This isn't a teaching device. It is an encyclopedia, a reference work. Frankly, the reason the article mentioned Zappa first is that a white person likely wrote it, and far too many white people are only familiar with white people and what white people do. And that means that people of color are excluded, with the result being a eurocentric worldview and works like this "encyclopedia" that are tragically lacking in content related to contributions of people of color to world history and civilization. Wikipedia should not pander to such ignorance, but seek to replace not knowing with knowing. Certainly, as a reference that is supposed to be worldwide in scope, your suggested approach, which is to take the narrowest possible approach is utterly indefensible and, some might conclude, racist -- if not by design, certainly in effect; it is exclusionary. And that is unacceptable. deeceevoice 07:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last four paragraphs of first section

The last four paragraphs of the first section (beginning with "Every time a beat is introduced possessing a metronomical correlation to the faster portion of the polyrhythmic interval...") do nothing but confuse me - they are completely unclear and read to me as almost deliberately obfuscated. The phrasing and diction is unnecessarily complex. Are there any objections to removing these paragraphs? 24.21.60.255 03:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, that was me - I forgot to sign in first. cfallin|(talk) 03:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great

the how to is great! David G Brault 03:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bias against classical music

I find it hard to believe that the European classical tradition (for want of a better term) is almost completely overlooked in this article. I am particularly puzzled by the (unsourced) statement that 'Traditional West African music is considered by musicologists to be the most rhythmically complex music in the world'. Also suspect is the statement that 'European classical music, although generally less percussive than other musical genres, makes use of polyrhythms as a contrastive device' (as if rhythm were an exclusively percussive phenomenon!). Apart from two marginal figures (Cowell and Nancarrow) no mention is made of 20th classical composers in the article, yet the polyrhythms of Elliot Carter's String Quartets far exceed anything found in West African Music, Jazz or progressive metal. The most rhythmically complex music in existence without question (since this is something that can be decided empirically) belongs to composers of the New Complexity School, such as Bryan Ferneyhough, Michael Finnissey, etc. Furthermore, the polyrhythms in pieces by these composers often involve a single player, rather than a group (for example, Ferneyhough's piano piece 'Lemma-Icon-Epigram', which has many passages of inhumanly complex polyrhythmy, at the very borders of playability). Christopher Melen 06:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The most rhythmically complex music in existence without question (since this is something that can be decided empirically) belongs to composers of the New Complexity School, such as Bryan Ferneyhough, Michael Finnissey, etc" try listening to some breakcore/drill'n'bass some time. 65.81.149.73 12:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very familiar with it. It's a bit silly getting into into a slanging match on 'which is the most complicated music', but if you read music then take a look at this [[1]]. Christopher Melen 03:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the sentence, "Traditional West African music is considered by musicologists to be the most rhythmically complex music in the world." Without a source, it doesn't really belong, as there are other styles of very rhythmically complex music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.231.27 (talk)

I think these comments about European vs. African music are gravely missing the point. In West African music, polyrhythm is part of the basic music vocabulary, and has been so for a very long time. The basic musical forms taught to beginning musicians are usually accompaniment parts of polyrythmic ensemble pieces. Polyrhythm, quite simply, is an African Music 101 topic.

In Western classical music, polyrhythm really is a fringe curiosity, and when it shows up, it is treated as an advanced topic. The nature of the argument I'm responding to is evidence of that: the commenters are arguing that the most complex musical pieces in the world are specific Western classical pieces, by composers who seem to have set out to create just that. Look at the bulk of the musical tradition, however, and the picture is different.

There's also the fact that citing 20th century classical composers as an example is problematic on other grounds—20th century European art has in many cases looked to African arts for inspiration (e.g., Picasso). I don't know whether that's the case for each of the composers cited, but my point is that the examples need more detail than what's provided. 63.80.102.4 (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed restructuring

This article has a lot of good things in it, but I think the "Usage and history" section is a bit of a jumble. I'd like to propose reorganising it for three reasons: one, to improve the flow and make clearer separations between polyrhythm and its uses in different traditions; two, to help address some of the "cultural bias" issues mentioned by others; three, to make the article more amenable to future expansion. Here's a suggested outline:

West African Music (1st two paragraphs of current version)

Popular Music (subsequent paragraphs)

Western Classical Music (Renaissance usage into 20th century classical)

For this last section, the earliest example of which I'm aware is Christopher Tye's "infamous" Sit Fast -- is anyone aware of others? I would also mention John Baldwine, Elway Bevin, Anthony Holborne, and Peeter Phillips, all of whom delighted in polyrhythms in their surviving œuvre. I'm unsure how to bridge the gulf between the Tudor flowering of rhythmically complex pieces, and those arising from 20th century experimentalism... or if there are other examples contemporaneous with but outside of the English Renaissance. Hopefully the composers mentioned will provide a good start on which to expand. Thoughts? Chang E 16:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestions. With regard to (at least partially) bridging that gulf one would have to mention Schummann and Brahms, composers who were rhythmically very experimental (lots of polyrhythms in the music of both composers). But of course the mediaeval and early Renaissance periods employed very complex rhythms, polymetres, etc - so there's lots to talk about there (Dufay, Ockeghem, et al). But the twentieth century needs extensive treatment, I think. I mean, how can an article on polyrhythm effectively ignore composers such as Ives, Messiaen, Carter, Ferneyhough, etc? Christopher Melen 09:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed this paragraph

[I have just reinseted this paragraph as the gentleman below said I am free to do. I have read Mr. Magadini's material, seen him play live, and can attest to his existence as a musician and one who should me mentioned in this section:]

"Two recognized methods for teaching and learning Polyrhythms were written by drummer/percussionist and educator Peter Magadini in the late 20th century. The first ( for all musicians ) " Polyrhythm The Musicians Guide" ( originally published by Bob Yeager and Try Publishing ) now with: Hal Leonard Publishing USA and " Polyrhythms for the Drumset" with: Alfred Publishing USA. Both works are published and in print or contact" cliard@hotmail.com

Two recognized methods for teaching and learning Polyrhythms were written by drummer/percussionist and educator Peter Magadini in the late 20th century. The first ( for all musicians ) " Polyrhythm The Musicians Guide" ( originally published by Bob Yeager and Try Publishing ) now with: Hal Leonard Publishing USA and " Polyrhythms for the Drumset" with: Alfred Publishing USA.
Both works are published and in print or contact : http://www.petermagadini.com

I removed this paragraph as it seemed suspiciously spammy to me... followed the history back and found that it was the user's only contribution[2]. If I've jumped the gun and this is really useful content, please feel free to add it again. Alexforcefive 22:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite Article

Clearly, there is misuse of terminology and bias in the article. Do we have any Ethnomusicologists and Music Theorists willing to collaborate and rewrite? It really should be done, b/c this article really gets at the messiness and (likely unintentional) misinformation that Wikipedia is really most famous for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.129.255 (talk) 13:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more. There are a number of discussions in this article that have nothing to do with music. cliard@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.232.71.154 (talk) 23:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:Babatunde Olatunji Drums of Passion.jpg

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Labels wrong on box notations?

I think the 2 vs 3 and 3 vs 4 box diagrams are labeled the wrong ways round aren't they? Isn't the 2 rhythm the rhythm having 2 beats in the measure and the 3 rhythm the one having 3? Rather than the 2 and 3 denoting the number of common subdivisions per beat? 213.68.15.100 (talk) 17:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Labels on boxes incorrect

The labels on the boxes showing polyrhythms (using the X notation) for 2 against 3 & 3 against 4 need to be switched. I took the liberty of reversing them, in addition to all passages referring to them for clarification (3 aginst 4 changed to 4 against 3, etc.). 76.235.13.115 (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.13.115 (talk) 14:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Southern Italian Folk Music

Mostly unknown outside the very provincial and remote regions of southern Italy, the southern Italian music, particularly that found in the region of Calabria, Campania, and Sicily is very heavy in polyrhythm. I'm mainly referencing the dance tunes played on the zampogna (bagpipe) and organetto (diatonic folk accordian) and accompanied by the tamborello (tambourine). Listen to the first few videos on this page to understand what I'm talking about: http://usonu.blogspot.com/. My question is whether or not there is room in this article to include this or is it too obscure of a tradition unlike African polyrhythm and Frank Zappa? I would be willing to write something up on this for the article but I don't have the technological ability to link to sources - all of which are in the Italian language. There is very little info on this area of music in the English language. I just happen to be an expert on it ;) But from an ethnomusicological perspective I think it is very appealing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zampognaro (talk • contribs) 23:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Piano Phase

Anybody else think Piano Phase by Steve Reich would be a great example of how polyrhythm can exhibit emergent properties depending on the precise resonance of the individual rhythms? FusionKnight (talk) 18:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]