Talk:Cloud computing/Archive 1

mention office suites

There should be a mention here about online office suites : they being examples of cloud computing Sanjiv swarup (talk) 01:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with that. The Register

provides a good reference. Lester 21:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

ty for your inputs. have done the needful Sanjiv swarup (talk) 04:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Introductory sub section

The foll. line is meaningless.

Common visualizations of a cloud computing approach include, but should not be considered to be limited by, the following:

I request someone to dele this line .

Sanjiv swarup (talk) 09:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

deleted Sanjiv swarup (talk) 03:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

WTF?

The first sentence of the article conveys no meaning or significance or reason. What?--Shtove (talk) 21:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the rest of the article doesn't do much to explain the topic, either. I'd like to slap this with an expert-subject tag, because cleanup and clarification cannot take place if the subject matter is unintelligible in the first place. I'd like to remove the spam tag, since the references seem to point to decent sources, and the external links has its own tag. Any objections to this? Wouter de Groot (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Given it is currently a marketing term, why not focus not on defining what it is -that is too vague- but in the growth of the term? SteveLoughran (talk) 21:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

100% agreed. Fixed now. samj (talk) 08:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

rename to read as "see also"

wrt sub section = Additional Cloud Topics

suggestion = rename to read as "see also"

from Sanjiv swarup (talk) 08:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

done. samj (talk) 09:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

SETI@home/Folding@home/etc.?

After reading through this article, I feel more confused than before regarding Cloud Computing. Since "Cloud" measn the general internet, so does distributed computing projects like SETI@home and Folding@home belong to the concept of Cloud Computing? As I understand from the article, they are basically raw computing power coming from the cloud to solve a problem, so are they cloud computing or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ufopedia (talk • contribs) 08:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Added per your suggestion - it doesn't matter whether the computing is done on a grid, by the neighbour's screensaver or a room full of monkeys... that abstraction is one of the fundamental features of cloud computing. samj (talk) 09:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Cloud services

The mention of Amazon here seems to be advertising. There are at least a thousand other such Vendors. The author of this para should simply insert a DMOZ link here for a lit of such vendors.

Disagree - I do not believer there are thousands of computing clouds available at this time. See "Google and the Wisdom of Clouds" from BusinessWeek: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_52/b4064048925836.htm

Disagree as well, Amazon is one of the archetypes in cloud computing as well as a very early leader. Amazon is regarded as one of the companies (along with Google) to illustrate and execute cloud computing's potential.

Disagree as well. Anyone can expose a web service. It takes security, scalability, support, billing, etc. to make is a real cloud service.

For the record

( section copied from User talk:CliffC )

rv collection of unhelpful edits, sorry if anything good was lost - spam, damaged paragraph, removal of apparently valid links, tag indicating work underway but no work undertaken

• How were my edits unhelpful? They were accurate and well referenced, unlike the rest of the article which is a regurgitation of some random paper which differs substantially from what the industry and its analysts have to say.
• Why are you apologising on my behalf, or making edits that would result in anything good [being] lost?
• What was spam?
• What paragraph was damaged (I had added a new paragraph)
• What 'apparently valid' link was removed (except for Redundant Array of Inexpensive Servers, a term referenced once by a paper over a decade old which is likely to be deleted soon and which has very little to do with the topic?
• How do you determine no work undertaken when the tag had just been added and should not be removed unless there have been no edits for several days per Template:Underconstruction?

samj (talk) 06:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually I was just thinking that these edits may indeed seem out of context with the rest of the article. There has been much discussion on this topic recently, and I have spent the last few days working on a consensus definition which you can read about here: The Cloud and Cloud Computing consensus definition?. Maybe you can read through this, and the references at the bottom as well as the Forrester and Gartner reports if you are really interested in this topic.

samj (talk) 06:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Samj. Before I made the reverts with the edit summary you mention above, I reverted two edits by your account (the diff here shows the before and after of my revert). I should have left an edit summary, but my reasoning was that your edits added an apparent promotional link to ebizq.net. Promotional links violate WP:EL. In addition the link is to a blog, also against WP:EL, unless the author is notable.

Next, the collection of edits I reverted with the edit summary you mention (diff here), edits made by you and several other editors, seemed intertwined and not worth reverting separately.

"...spam, damaged paragraph, removal of apparently valid links, tag indicating work underway but no work undertaken"

• spam - the misplaced link to gridbus.org has the appearance of spam bacause it was inserted in the wrong place. May not be spam, but the paper linked may not be a WP:RS either. I didn't bother to read it because of the link placement.
• damaged paragraph - IMO at that moment replacing the lead sentences

Cloud computing is a style of computing where IT-related capabilities are provided “as a service” using Internet technologies to multiple external customers. Resources being accessed which are typically owned and operated by a third-party provider on a consolidated basis in datacenter locations

with

Cloud computing refers to computing resources being accessed which are typically owned and operated by a third-party provider on a consolidated basis in Data Center locations.

- appeared to damage the paragraph, that assessment was perhaps incorrect and simply a matter of editing style/taste. Perhaps I had become impatient with the number of edits over the past weeks that seem to come from someone with something to sell. But I did use the phrase "sorry if anything good was lost", and I do apologize for this one.

• removal of apparently valid links - links to cloud articles in businessweek.com and infoworld.com
• tag indicating work underway but no work undertaken - tag {{underconstruction}} added to article with the summary "article's a mess - needs an overhaul" by an editor with zero edits in the past except for three AfD votes for his favorite singer and musical group. Without a contribution to the article this looks more like vandalism than a constructive edit. I have no objection to the tag (which may be argued against by the article's regular editors), only to its source.

I have too much going on in the non-wiki world to read and comment on the consensus document at your web site, but I encourage you to mention it on the talk page so that you have a chance at a true consensus. --CliffC (talk) 20:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok makes more sense now. I have hundreds of edits spanning back to 2005 and a bunch of others with SPAs so maybe I was logged out or you checked while the history was catching up to my recent rename (from an alias to my full name). In any case the existing article was based entirely on a (non-notable?) paper written by a lab working on grid computing and was quite detached from reality. As I have some time on my hands I've spent the last days trying to align the two. samj (talk) 08:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright so now the article has been completely overhauled and properly referenced (per complaints made about it) it's pretty clear that my edits weren't spam so I'm archiving this. samj (talk) 08:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Vague and confusing

This article can be written better than it is now.Chmyr (talk) 02:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC

Agreed, this article reads like some boring, nasal nerd who's trying to impress you with jargon instead of getting actual points across. I think many readers are going to walk away from this article still having no clue whatsoever what the general term of "cloud computing" is referring to. Once we cut through the hype, jargon and nerdgos... maybe we can actually have people leave this article with some understanding of it? Is that too much to ask? LOL

When it comes down to it, it's a fairly simply concept (not the implementation and all the derivatives, but the CONCEPT itself). Typically, it's using the power of multiple computers across the internet to work in unison (or you could say in harmony) to accomplish tasks that require a lot of processing power and storage that would otherwise overwhelm the capabilities of an average computer working alone. There, I said it. LOL Cowicide (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the article can be more simpler than what it is. The concept of Cloud computing loses it track at the bottom...

Dhoomady (talk) 11:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Chmyr and Cowicide This article needs some attention to meet wikipedia standards. Kalivd (talk) 14:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

This page makes no sense at all. In fact, the picture of "The Cloud" with the corresponding caption summarizes this article perfectly, much ado about hot air.

So well put and simply stated above by Chmyr and Cowicide . I run an IT Knowledge Solutions company and am still amazed how complicated our profession make concepts sound to the not technical person. Lets get over it and help people move into this new age. Thank you for clearing this up for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.34.229 (talk) 10:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I am planning on archiving this sub section. no action : all talk !! Sanjiv swarup (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no point in archiving a discussion just because there has been no action. Please don't. --CliffC (talk) 12:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with previous authors, this article is misleading and has lots of erraneous statements. It's been written by incompetent people. I wish it wouldn't exist at all. I can't give all of my arguments here, because of unusual discussion format (Just a single note: Enomalism is not a cloud, but little piece of python code). We have an extended discussion on the definition of cloud at groups.google.com/group/cloud-computing If you have arguments against, let's do it in proper environemnt. Sapenov (talk) 03:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

i think it would be nice if there could be an article or something within Wikipedia that would match the standards of wikipedia.Anoopnair2050 (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I've spent the last days overhauling the article and I hope you are all more satisfied with it now. Feel free to contribute yourself. samj (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

I assume there is some metaphor behind the use of the word "cloud" for "cloud computing" - does anyone know it? -- 13:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC) I believe the "cloud" refers to the abstract concept of the web or internet. It's used to indicate that you don't really care about the details, about who or what is out there in the cloud, it's just the cloud, the rest of the internet.--Bill.albing 15:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC) I believe that cloud refers to the fact that most tech architects use a drawing of a cloud when discussing the Internet or services available over IP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.145.142 (talk) 01:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Surely they draw it as a cloud because of the metaphor, it's not called a cloud simply because it just happens to be drawn as one. User:Jamie Kitson —Preceding comment was added at 08:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

See http://www.mercurynews.com/businessheadlines/ci_7124839 Westwind273 17:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No, the cloud came way before 'Cloud Computing'...its the general purpose "some kind of network stuff" symbol used when you did diagrams using a tool like visio; stick the cloud between some boxes to imply the internet was between them. What's changed is that people are now putting storage and computation into that cloud, at least in their slideware. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveLoughran (talk • contribs) 09:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, The Cloud has been around for ages on network diagrams etc. and while it is a metaphor for the Internet, the most important point is the more stuff you can push into the cloud the less you have to take care of yourself (consider the complexity of a WAN vs a VPN... and a diagram of both... usually the latter is the same as the former, only with a dirty big cloud covering over most of the complexity which is outsourced to the ISPs). samj (talk) 08:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Technical jargons

This is all very confusing. I think we need to have a clear difference b/w Cloud computing, grid computing, clustering, multi-tenant, software as a service etc... Some times these terms are self contradictory.?--Mailtoram —Preceding comment was added at 09:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree and have spent the last days improving the situation (multitenancy is a key characteristic of cloud computing and SaaS a subset), but there could still afford to be some clarity in terms of differentiating the other terms (esp grid/clustering). samj (talk) 09:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Argh

Argh I cant believe people are using this term!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.28.155.207 (talk • contribs)

It seems that this is the last Marketing fad (and Marketing does creates new words especially in the computing world), and as WP is just the image of the real world, I believe we should use this terme too. This not a problem in my opinion, as if the concept settles on an other term we'll just have to do a renaming (a Redirect). This is how WP works --Kompere (talk) 14:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think cloud computing has a good deal more potential than that as an umbrella term for all the other *aaS guff... I'd certainly much rather see us talking about cloud computing than bolting as a service onto everything. The question now is more about whether the vendors manage to derail it as they did grid computing... samj (talk) 08:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like an updated version of the 1960's service bureau. I would like to see a comparison. talk (talk) 11:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.152.238 (talk)

I've added a link to the service bureau article per your feedback. samj (talk) 08:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Dell

Removed content from unreliable blog source:

While the general term "Cloud" had been used prior, the technology firm Dell has been attributed with coining the actual term "Cloud Computing." The term was reportedly first used by Dell in a press release on March 27, 2007. At this time, Dell had already begun the formal process of trademarking the term. Howeverm, in 2008, as the trademarking process came to a close, Dell found itself being largely criticized by the internet community for trademarking what many believed to be Public Domain term.

Sorry, I didn't think that a news article from the Wall Street Journal was considered an "unreliable blog source". Nonetheless, I removed the reference and tried to make the statement about Dell's trademark more neutral and factual. Updated reference includes government database entry on the trade mark. The press release by Dell has also been referenced. I do not believe the reference to the pertenent press release consitutes "Conflict of interest" as defined by Wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.222.228.201 (talk) 13:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The 'WSJ blog' is an opinion piece which has been repeatedly taken apart in the comments. Your unverifiable edits claim that Dell 'popularized' the term and according to IP2Location you are around 10mi from Dell. samj (talk) 19:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the edits as they were at the time of removal. It's not a controversy btw. samj (talk) 19:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Term Controversy ==

While the general term "Cloud" had been used prior, the technology firm Dell has staked claim to popularizing the actual term "Cloud Computing." Dell filed for a trademark on the term on March 23, 2007 and used the term with the indicator "TM" in a press release dated March 27, 2007 .

In mid-2008, however, objections were raised to Dell's intention to trademark the term. Many in the internet community contended that the term entered the vernacular before Dell filed for the trademark, and that the term should be public domain.

The veracicty of these statements has not been substantiated. Google Trends shows 0 hits on the term "Cloud Computing" prior to 3rd quarter of 2007 indicating minimal use of the term prior to that time. There are however, sporadic news articles containing the term "Cloud Computing" dating back to 2004

Regardless, the trademark case history shows that the Notice of Allowance furnished to Dell by the United States Patent and Trademark Office on July 8th, 2008 was rescinded on August 5, 2008, and the case was returned to an examiner on August 6th, 2008.

Warned user 69.222.228.201 (talk) about WP:COI and WP:3RR. samj (talk) 19:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey Sam, Anonymous user (John) here. Just wanted to write you a message, though I'm not sure this is the correct place.

You'll have to forgive me, I don't edit Wikipedia that much and the piece on cloud computing was my first real attempt to do so. I just wanted to let you know that the piece I wrote on Dell's attempt to trademark the term Cloud Computing was a good faith effort. I'm not sure about IP2Location, but I tried their "Free Demo" and you are correct, it lists my IP address in Plano, Tx. Why that is, I have no idea. I'm sitting at a desk in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin in the office building of a machining company. I was researching cloud computing for our IT department. I assure you, I do not work for Dell.

I have to admit though, I had laughed pretty hard at the situation, and honestly, I appreciate your zealous protection of Wikipedia's integrity. I understand the internet is a crazy place, and if you don't believe me and you think I'm a malicious employee working for Dell, well, there's not much I can do. Don't worry, I don't blame you.

As for my edit, there were two things I wanted to apologize for.

1.) I was unaware of the general Wikipedia comments with regards to WSJ's opinion section. I'll refrain from referencing it in the future.

2.) I think I worded the article wrong. I state that Dell "staked claim to popularizing the term." Perhaps it would be better to say "Dell has claimed responsibility for popularizing the term" or "Dell has claimed that they were responsible for popularizing the term"

In either case, you should know that I did not mean to imply Dell actually popularized it. Proving that would be impossible, I was merely stating their "claim" is they coined the term, and that they have Trademark rights to ir. I tried to show support for both sides of the argument. Dell's side by providing Google trend results with regards to the search volume of the term measured against a timeline, and the opposing side by providing news sources to the contrary.

As for evidence of the existence an overall controversy, I have to say I disagree with you. Looking across forums and blogs, everything from Slashdot to lowlevel basement bloggers, I have found people arguing back and forth about Dell's attempt to Trademark the term and whether or not it is public domain. I believe that such discourse deserves mention on the wikipedia article, although, perhaps I am going about it the wrong way. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Let me know what you think!

PS - I probably won't edit anymore from work. I looked up the history of this IP, and it shows this IP made various velociraptor related vandalism edits (Wtf?). I have no idea. The first edit I ever made was with regards to helicopter anti-torque pedals and now this Cloud Computing article.

I'll message you when I'm on my home machine.

69.222.228.201 (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)John

Thanks for taking the time to write John. You can (and should) create an account if you want to keep some privacy and build up a reputation (using bare IPs starts you on the wrong foot and you don't even need to give an email if you don't want to - once you have an account people can't see your IP). Apologies for the false accusation too - you must admit that it is very convenient that of the entire planet and 4 billion IP numbers you should have landed on Dell's doorstep!

So basically your writing is good but you need to use reliable sources - the more reliable the better. You can read the policy docs (eg WP:5P) but once you've got the basics down continue to be WP:BOLD in contributing where you can.

The Dell issue, while interesting (you can read more about it here), is essentially a dead duck now so far as I can tell - USPTO will declare it generic and it will be a footnote in history. I don't have a problem with Dell but I don't see that they've given anything to the cloud computing community, or maybe they have and I just haven't found it yet, and in any case it sounds like they will eventually. It is quite clear though that they pulled the term from the public domain and tried to monopolise at least part of it starting back in March last year. They've then let it build up steam where they could have been enforcing it since March as a common law mark - they were already overtly using it!

I would suggest a concise overview belongs in the legal or history section on the cloud computing page and/or the dell and USPTO pages:samj (talk) 23:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sam - I understand your point. I think its very valid and the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. To be honest I was already thinking similarly after the second revision. I started thinking, "I must really be on the wrong track here."

Thanks for the pointers. I'll be sure to make an account in the coming days. Have a great night! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.223.206.174 (talk) 02:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction in this article is poor. When I open this page I want to know what the heck cloud computing is, I'm not interested in some etymological deliberation of the origins of the word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.0.118 (talk) 23:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully you are happier with the introduction now. samj (talk) 09:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The improvements are appreciated, but I think the initial paragraph remains too reliant on technical buzzwords for a general-use encyclopedia. E.g, consider the simpler ZDNet definition [1]. Not only is it more approachable, but also gives the specific example of Google Apps. The casual reader should not have to look up several unfamiliar hotlinked terms to get the initial concept. The technical detail can be retained but the initial paragraph should be restructured similar to the 2nd ZDNet definition. That way casual readers can quickly grasp the concept, yet those with deeper more technical interest can read further. Joema (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok I've included the apps example, "in the cloud", etc. but this 'dumbing down' is not necessarily accurate... for example cloud computing is not restricted to applications running 'in or from network servers' (eg peer-to-peer, unless you're calling the other clients 'network servers'), and where is the application running anyway when the vast majority of the action is in javascript sent to the browser (eg Google Apps)? Anyway we're getting there now - it's a lot better than it was. samj (talk) 06:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The very first sentence in this article is hard to read (I also believe it is off-topic):

The term Cloud Computing derives from the common depiction in most technology architecture diagrams, of the Internet or IP availability, using an illustration of a cloud.

The article should begin with an accepted definition of 'Cloud Computing'. As it stands, the rest of the article is as vague as the topic itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.167.185.18 (talk) 12:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

yes!The article should really begin with accepted defination as the defination mentioned in the article is imprecise(indistinct) and hard to read. Anoopnair2050 (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(Hopefully) fixed now. samj (talk) 09:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Similar Meanings

There are getting to be so many terms in this area that have similar meanings. I think it would be nice if there could be an article or something within Wikipedia that would straighten all this out, like a comparison chart. Terms I'm thinking of are cloud computing, grid computing, ASP, thin client, RIA, distributed computing, cluster computing, and time-share (from the 60's). For example, what is the difference between cloud computing and ASP? They seem remarkably similar. Also, I get the feeling there is some difference between Cloud Computing as described in this article, and Cloud Computing as described by Google and IBM in their initiative announcement. See http://www.mercurynews.com/businessheadlines/ci_7124839 and http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/138195/google_ibm_promote_cloud_computing.html and http://www.itjungle.com/bns/bns100807-story02.html Westwind273 18:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed .

There could be a redirect from articles ( cloud computing, grid computing, ASP, thin client, RIA, distributed computing, cluster computing, and time-share ) to ONE article called xzzee (suggestons welcome) Sanjiv swarup (talk) 09:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagreed.

Distributed Computing is the general problem of having more than one box talk to each other. Clustering is something you do on a single site; what this 'cloud computing' story says is that you dont have your own cluster; you have a storage somewhere, CPU elsewhere. Now, Grid Computing and Cloud computing are similarish; though by virtue of superior vagueness, Cloud Computing is a superset of Grid Computing. Grid Computing has taken on specific meanings, often specific architectural meanings (OGSI/GGF grid architectures) which don't hold for Cloud Computing. Which is probalby why press/marketing like the term. I have a presentation on the topic [[2]], which looks at some of the differences. SteveLoughran (talk) 11:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Further...

Grid computing refers to a method for establishing your computing resources. Grid is not necessarily defined to cloud. Someone can build their own grid computer and not make the resource available over IP. Cloud refers to accessing computing resources, whether they are grid or not, over the Internet. Don't overcomplicate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.145.142 (talk) 01:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times has an article talking about the confusion http://www.nytimes.com/idg/IDG_002570DE00740E180025742400363509.html?ref=technology --Westwind273 (talk) 22:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Having talked to a number of people in industry and academia, the consensus was that cloud computing was congruent to a subclass of grid computing (indeed, it's probably the most interesting subclass where the resources are not bound to a single organization). Thus, in many ways it is possible to view cloud computing as a rebranding of grid computing to sell it to a new group of people without some of the built-up baggage of stuff that people hated about the way grids had become. As it is, in my view the whole term-space is still very new and could do with shaking out for another few years before a truly encyclopædic article on the area can be written. Donal Fellows (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. Grid had got bogged down in implementation details, with a lot of focus on standardisation of WS-* based APIs for talking to stuff. Cloud Computing steps back from the details by ignoring them and avoiding the standardisation process. However, I'm not sure about 'subclass'. If you use google mail to keep your inbox, you've moved from a LAN-hosted mail server to the cloud; Now certainly in a utility computing world you could host your stuff 'on a grid', but the main focus for grid work since about 2001 onwards has been batch data processing and computation, with a focus on scientific/engineering apps rather than interactivity. It's Grid Computing that has painted itself into a corner. SteveLoughran (talk) 12:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia articles on Cloud Computing and Application Service Provider give remarkably similar definitions. For someone who knew little about these subjects, I think they would be confused by these two articles. Why have two names for what is essentially the same thing? --Westwind273 (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, there is a lot of confusion, particularly around grid computing which was originally intended as the computer equivalent of the electricity grid. Unfortunately that vision was never realised and grid became another word for cluster. While there is an unfortunate tendency to focus on virtualization, grids, etc. the real promise is more abstract and it matters not whether the calculations are done by a grid, peer-to-peer, or by an army of monkeys with typewriters, so long as it's fast, cheap and secure. It concerns me greatly that (particularly computer hardware) vendors who are tired of selling rebadged clusters as grids are now interested in selling rebadged grids as 'private clouds', and I hope that the last days I have spent editing the cloud computing article(s) help to clear the situation up a bit. TODO: clear up ambiguities between cloud/grid/saas/asp. samj (talk) 09:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope that edits made over the weekend clear things up a bit. samj (talk) 08:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Centralized Computing

I think we should discuss centralized computing... cloud computing is simply a buzzword for a flavor of centralized computing. Basically it's a fancy "futuristic" name that these upstart companies use because it is much easier to market. Technically, the differences are pretty insubstantial. The only difference I can think of is that the network is bigger. Software is stored on a central server, and computers access it via a network. --72.39.35.178 (talk) 16:50, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Disagree for reasons that should be obvious, not the least of which is 15,600,000 hits for 'cloud computing', 62,000 for 'centralized computing'. USPTO also just declared cloud computing both descriptive and generic which would suggest that the term (which appears in at least one dictionary already) is here to stay. Furthermore, there are both distributed and centralized aspects to cloud computing, particularly when you start talking about peer-to-peer applications (which have no place at all in centralized computing). I'm surprised we're having this discussion at all but nonetheless since you've suggested (twice now) that cloud computing be merged into centralized computing it belongs on the latter's talk page. samj (talk) 08:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Potential advantages

Doesn't this section should include something about scalability and fail recovery potential advantages?Orimosenzon (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"The Cloud" image

Boy. that's helpful. Took a lot of work to create that image. Very artistic. The caption helps a lot. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 18:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The image is frivolous and therefore unencyclopedic. It's a Wikimedia Commons image so I suppose it cannot be conveniently put up for IFD. I will or someone else ought to remove it from the article unless its utility and encyclopedic nature can be clearly demonstrated. --AB (talk) 19:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it took all of about 8 seconds to whip up in omnigraffle and replacing it with something more useful (like a sample network diagram) is on my todo list. Then again if you guys have both got time to complain about it here then presumably you've also got time to suggest (or create) a better replacement? samj (talk) 22:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

A sample network graph could be nice. Unlike you, I don't really know much about CC, so I don't know what to put in the diagram. I will remove the cloud image from the article for now, and hope that a nice network diagram magically appears. --AB (talk) 23:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. TODO. samj (talk) 17:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Abstracted layering

The cloud mentality is in fact the idea that what's on the backend of the user interaction is a no-care. With the escalation in virtualization, this methodology becomes more prevelant across all layers of computer environments and user interfaces. A quick example would be that if a user required a database driven backend, it should not matter what operating system the database is actually deployed on as long as it is supported on that OS. One could even argue it shouldn't matter what database manager is installed for the same reasons, as long as dependency chains are met.

Further then that, not only the what of the install, but now, the where of the install becomes a "clouded" entity. Centralized computer farms could be established as shared resource pools, and as long as performance criteria are met, the users environment could now be deployed at a selection of physical locations.

Cloud computing is a suitible. name —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.121.215 (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

--Esolution (talk) 14:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Cloud computing is the mother of all abstractions. samj (talk) 09:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Cloud services vs. 'cloud computing'

I want to suggest that 'cloud services' are the proper term and 'cloud computing' just creates confusion as it's jargon-based. Cloud services are akin to web services, but outside the firewall. One poster asked about the difference between ASP and Cloud computing, mentioning that they seemed similar. They aren't. The ASP model is one of a complete application run in a hosted manner. Cloud services are discrete point services (storage, compute, payment processing, etc.). You put together a number of cloud services to build a complete application. This is EXACTLY the same as Web services. The major differences lie in the fact that 'web service' was mostly something produced and consumed behind the corporate firewall. Cloud services differ by being out in the cloud, providing access to everyone for that web service, and using some kind of innovative charge model (usually the 'utility' model) where anyone can afford it, even for a short period of time. I tried to outline this more here: http://neotactics.com/blog/technology/short-sighted-about-cloud-computing

My main thrust being that 'cloud service' == 'web service' might help clarify the discussion. 'Cloud computing' doesn't really relate to anything.

And yes, 'web service' is a terrible term, but it's somewhat established at this point. :D

Disagree Cloud services are a subset of cloud computing but they need not be web services n the traditional sense (eg REST/SOAP)... XMPP is used to push mail to iPhones for example... and I think we'll see increasing diversity going forward. samj (talk) 09:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok cloud service ~= web service, but cloud computing stays. Archiving. samj (talk) 10:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Grid computing

No fair removing opinion pieces about cloud not being ground breaking while leaving opinion pieces about how revolutionary cloud is. Gotta be fair here and present both sides of that debate Sam. --Rw2 (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Where is the debate? I'm yet to find anyone else claiming "a cloud is a resource on the grid" etc. samj (talk) 21:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

if this conversation is complete, I may archive it . Sanjiv swarup (talk) 06:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Cloud standards

Looking through the latter parts of this article it seemed like just about every web-technology is being now label as "Cloud-foo". DO we really need to list every web browser, every web language, every web standard in the article and create duplicate categories for all of these? Its all beginning to look a lot like original research unless citations can be found for all these products asserting something specific to cloud computing. --Salix alba (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Agreed we need references for this; most of the standards are by induction from Web 2.0, SaaS, etc. and some new ones are being discussed specifically in this context around storage, virtual machines etc. There will certainly be some standardisation of things like cloud databases (eg SimpleDB et al) in the future too. samj (talk) 10:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
• Regarding listing 'every browser' etc. I'd be happy enough to trim this back to ones that have targeted cloud computing environments; Chrome, maybe IE 8, probably FF4 etc. samj (talk) 10:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Introduction opaque

The introduction is opaque as hell, and gets worse and worse after the first sentence. Might someone perhaps provide a new lede that concisely says what the heck "cloud computing" actually refers to? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)