Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Several Monty Python sketches

Several Monty Python sketches

Delete all - expired prods removed by editor who acknowledges that the sketches are not independently notable yet for some reason feels that the prods were "arbitrary." Given that the de-prodder acknowledges the lack of independent notability of the sketches and given that in addition to not being notable the sketches all fail WP:PLOT these seem like pretty obvious deletes. Otto4711 20:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP ALL - While its true that these Monty Python skits can not be absolutely defined as notable, I would argue that was actually the nature of Monty Python. Some of the funniest bits of that show were not the sketches which are commonly known, such as Spam, but really the segue pieces. I am therefore requesting removal of the deletion notice on the grounds that it is arbitrary, and that Wikipedia provides an excellent repository for showcasing Monty Python skits. There are after all 100s of Monty Python Skits and only a handful that have been made into articles in Wikipedia. I could also propose merging all proposed deleted articles into one related article to save some fine contributions from the wiki community. Thank You.--10stone5 20:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The threshold requirement is notability, not how funny they are. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all. I love the Fliegender Zirkus as much as the next geek, but this is not Pythonpedia. I was prepared to say that these should be kept, but I was thinking of things like the Spam sketch or the Parrot Sketch. DS 21:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and Merge into List of Monty Python's Flying Circus episodes. Fancruft. Unencyclopedic. We don't need, for instance, a list of all the composers mentioned in the Decomposing Composers sketch. Summarize each and include in the list. For a model of that, see Series 3, Episode 7 in the list, where a skit is described. I don't think redirecting is worthwhile. Noroton 21:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and by the way, there's no assertion of notability, usually no references and nothing but a plot summary in any of these articles. All against policy. Noroton 21:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge all (plot summaries) into one article. -- lucasbfr ^talk 21:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. Information is worthwhile, but not as separate articles. Operating 21:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep why delete two sheds but keep nudge nudge? Either get rid of every MP sketch article or keep them all. The only other sensible alternative is to only keep "notable" sketches, which would be sketches that have been written about or reviewed independently. But that would be silly. We have a separate article for every Frasier episode, not just the "notable" ones. Likewise, it is fine to have an article for every MP sketch. Capmango 23:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:WAX is not a reasonable argument ~~for~~ against deletion. Maybe we shouldn't have an article on every Frasier episode. I don't know. It doesn't matter, because the existence of those articles has nothing to do with the existence of these. The existence of other MP sketch articles is not a valid reason for keeping these. Otto4711 00:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not arguing for deletion. And I was using the Frasier example illustritively. There are plenty of situations where it makes sense as an encyclopedia to have a complete set. We had similar discussions about NY subway stops. Some are clearly notable, some maybe not so much, but if we're going to cover subway stops, it makes sense to cover all of them. If we're going to cover Monty Python sketches (and we should), it makes WP:SENSE to cover them all. Capmango 03:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that it makes sense to cover every MP sketch simply for the sake of completeness. Otto4711 12:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep All or Renominate Separately so that we can discuss the merits of each separately. I know that the Anne Elk Brontosaurus episode is notable and the Kilamanjaro episode might be considered notable. Pocopocopocopoco 23:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have confidence in the ability of my fellow editors to be able to review this small selection of similar and related articles and come to a decision. If you have reliable sources that attest to the notability of the Anne Elk sketch then please add them to the article. Otto4711 00:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Anne Elk is notable because the whole sketch is in imdb.com memorable quotes. Pocopocopocopoco 01:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone's typing up a transcript of the sketch and uploading it to IMDB doesn't make the sketch notable. Anyone can type up a scene from a TV show and upload it there. Otto4711 02:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How? My impression is that IMDB does not follow the wikipedia model of everybody editing articles, especially memorable quote articles. IMDB is used extensively in wiki as a source. Besides, shouldn't you show why Anne Elk is not notable? Pocopocopocopoco 02:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The lack of reliable sources that are substantially about the particular sketch demonstrate its lack of notability. IMDB allows anyone to upload information and exercises varying degrees of editorial control over the uploaded information. Its use as a source on Wikipedia has been contentious. However, even if IMDB were an impeccable source, the existence of a transcript of a particular sketch does not establish that the sketch is notable. Existence does not equal notability. Otto4711 12:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK how about this one Natural Kinds, Laws of Nature and Scientific Methodology by Peter Biggs pg 127 'I will call such minimal contentful accounts "Elk Theories" in honour of John Clease's Monty Python character. To the increasing high brow television presenter, Miss Anne Elk lovingly repeats her ("That is the theory, it is mine, and it belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too") the theory of the brontosaurus' Pocopocopocopoco 14:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:N. Notability means that the subject of the article is the substantial subject of reliable sources. A one-line mention in a book of at least 127 pages is not substantially about the sketch. Otto4711 15:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that most of us do online searches as we can't be bothered to go to a library over something like this and it might be difficult to get the rigorous standards that you demand for something that was a skit over 30 years ago online. During it's time, this skit was popular, it occurred before my time but people still talked about it when I was a kid. I know your going to start putting in a whole bunch of wikipedia links like WP:OR but what can I say. This skit generates almost a thousand hits on google and there are some reliable sources like the one I mentioned above that make reference to it. Right now I don't have time to do a more extensive search at the different hits, perhaps later. Pocopocopocopoco 20:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but notability is not some rigorous unattainable standard. And the fact that you keep using words like "popular" indicates that you don't understand what notability is. It is not popularity. It is not a measure of how many Google hits it generates (the majority of which I'm sure are fansites and other unreliable sources). It is not about things "referencing" the sketch in passing. It is about having independent reliable sources that are substantially about the sketch. Otto4711 21:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all. At the time this comment is written, none of the sketches have any sources demonstrating their independent notability beyond the fact that they're all Monty Python routines and therefore hilarious. If there are sources which can be added for any of them, I'll gladly review my opinion. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all These are all plot summaries that don't do the show justice. Why should they be on Wikipedia? I'm sure the vast majority of Monty Python sketches are non-notable. Fee Fi Foe Fum 05:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The theory on notability of Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses. That is the theory, it is mine, and it belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too. :) Pocopocopocopoco 14:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep All These are all notable sketches to some degree or another, especially when considered as a whole. On individual basis, i could see deleting one or two of them as non-notable, but as a block, i'm sorry, several are important cultural and historical events that reveal quite a bit about other things in society. It might be interesting to consider the recent actions on another monty python sketch that was not added in here, which is the football sketch which was recently kept. Did these prods happen at the same time? or after. I suspect the same time. Monty Python's work is notable, some of it is more notable than others. --Buridan 17:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is very easy to state that something has some sort of cultural significance. It is quite another to back up that claim with reliable sources. You're admitting here that at least some of this material does not meet Wikipedia notability guidelines yet you're arguing to keep it anyway. WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid argument for keeping. The fact that the football sketch article was (wrongly IMHO) kept has no bearing on whether any of these articles should be kept, because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid reason for keeping. However, if you want to make the argument, then consider that for every AFDed MP sketch article that's been kept several have been deleted, including "Blackmail" (deleted), "Albatross" (deleted), "Court Scene with Cardinal Richelieu," "Court Charades" and "Dennis Moore" (all deleted), "Erotic film" (deleted), "Conquistador Coffee Campaign" (deleted), "Johann Gambolputty" (deleted), "Mr. Hilter and the Minehead by-election" (deleted), "Medical Love Song" (deleted), "Silly Job Interview (deleted) and "Restaurant Abuse/Cannibalism" (deleted) and many others that did not survive being prodded. Otto4711 18:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

comment yes many have been deleted, and i suspect they will be remade eventually, it is that people recognize them as notable. if your point is about it needs verifiable material, then you should have marked them with cleanup, expert, and improve. No i am saying that at this point in time, some of the material might not have verifiable sources to show notability, but others certainly will. I haven't researched it, but then neither did you, you just marked it as delete, when it seems to me that again, you mark something for delete that you really want improved. stop WP:Bureucracy in favor of WP:common. I also want to note that I saw at least one Prod of yours in recent history that wasn't marked with an edit summary. It might be that some of these need deletion review. please use edit summaries on deletion proposals. --Buridan 22:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My point is not that they need to be cleaned up. My point is, has been and will continue to be that the sketches are not independently notable. The notability of Monty Python does not extend to every three-minute segment that the troupe committed to film. This is honestly not that complex of a position, and all of your Wiki-lawyering and (incorrect) supposition about my motives, my desires or my actions does not suddenly make what is not notable, notable. Otto4711 22:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List individually I havent the least idea whether any MP sketch is notable, as I avoid him altogether. But I think it reasonable a priori that the notability of them will differ, and so I ask that the nom be withdrawn and they be listed individually. DGG (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]