Talk:COVID-19 pandemic

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01. Superseded by #9

The first few sentences of the lead's second paragraph should state The virus is typically spread during close contact and via respiratory droplets produced when people cough or sneeze. Respiratory droplets may be produced during breathing but the virus is not considered airborne. It may also spread when one touches a contaminated surface and then their face. It is most contagious when people are symptomatic, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear. (RfC March 2020)

02. Superseded by #7

The infobox should feature a per capita count map most prominently, and a total count by country map secondarily. (RfC March 2020)

03. Obsolete

The article should not use {{Current}} at the top. (March 2020)

04. Do not include a sentence in the lead section noting comparisons to World War II. (March 2020)

05. Cancelled

Include subsections covering the domestic responses of Italy, China, Iran, the United States, and South Korea. Do not include individual subsections for France, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia and Japan. (RfC March 2020) Include a short subsection on Sweden focusing on the policy controversy. (May 2020)

Subsequently overturned by editing and recognized as obsolete. (July 2024)

06. Obsolete

There is a 30 day moratorium on move requests until 26 April 2020. (March 2020)

07. There is no consensus that the infobox should feature a confirmed cases count map most prominently, and a deaths count map secondarily. (May 2020)

08. Superseded by #16

The clause on xenophobia in the lead section should read ...and there have been incidents of xenophobia and discrimination against Chinese people and against those perceived as being Chinese or as being from areas with high infection rates. (RfC April 2020)

09. Cancelled

Supersedes #1. The first several sentences of the lead section's second paragraph should state The virus is mainly spread during close contact and by small droplets produced when those infected cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets may also be produced during breathing; however, they rapidly fall to the ground or surfaces and are not generally spread through the air over large distances. People may also become infected by touching a contaminated surface and then their face. The virus can survive on surfaces for up to 72 hours. Coronavirus is most contagious during the first three days after onset of symptoms, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear and in later stages of the disease. (April 2020)

Notes

On 17:16, 6 April 2020, these first several sentences were replaced with an extracted fragment from the coronavirus disease 2019 article, which at the time was last edited at 17:11.

010. The article title is COVID-19 pandemic. The title of related pages should follow this scheme as well. (RM April 2020, RM August 2020)

011. The lead section should use Wuhan, China to describe the virus's origin, without mentioning Hubei or otherwise further describing Wuhan. (April 2020)

012. Superseded by #19

The lead section's second sentence should be phrased using the words first identified and December 2019. (May 2020)

013. Superseded by #15

File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should be used as the visual element of the misinformation section, with the caption U.S. president Donald Trump suggested at a press briefing on 23 April that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19. There is no evidence that either could be a viable method. (1:05 min) (May 2020, June 2020)

014. Overturned

Do not mention the theory that the virus was accidentally leaked from a laboratory in the article. (RfC May 2020) This result was overturned at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, as there is consensus that there is no consensus to include or exclude the lab leak theory. (RfC May 2024)

015. Supersedes #13. File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should not be used as the visual element of the misinformation section. (RfC November 2020)

016. Supersedes #8. Incidents of xenophobia and discrimination are considered WP:UNDUE for a full sentence in the lead. (RfC January 2021)

017. Only include one photograph in the infobox. There is no clear consensus that File:COVID-19 Nurse (cropped).jpg should be that one photograph. (May 2021)

018. Superseded by #19

The first sentence is The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is a global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (August 2021, RfC October 2023)

019. Supersedes #12 and #18. The first sentence is The global COVID-19 pandemic (also known as the coronavirus pandemic), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), began with an outbreak in Wuhan, China, in December 2019. (June 2024)

Is it over?

To continue what must be several sections, above and archived, concerning this point: I note that the most recent two attempts to introduce reality to this article have both been reverted. Who, precisely, is still claiming the pandemic isn't over? The WHO do not declare any pandemic to be 'over', so we'd be waiting a long time for that one. The MSM, almost to a man, now refer to the pandemic using the past tense; here's an example from today [1]. In the UK, even the BBC and Guardian acknowledge it's over. I believe both the US and Germany have officially declared it over. I think now, if anyone claims it isn't over, they should bring forward reputable sources to support the claim. Perhaps there are some sources - I'm mostly just familiar with UK sources - that state it's continuing, so let's see them. If there are such sources, then all well and good, but they would need to be highly influential publications to overcome the vast majority of sources that now consider it over. Also, are MSM sources more relevant than medical stuff in this particular article? I would suggest so. Pikemaster (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

yes this has been the source of many discussions--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 18:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed I think there are multiple reliable sources indicating the pandemic is over. Another one: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/17/briefing/covid.html "But the excess-deaths milestone suggests that it’s true now: The pandemic is finally over." The WHO has terminated the PHEIC, which is as far as I know the only 'official' step they can take regarding making the 'end' official, although at the time there was a reasonable argument that ending the PHEIC was not the same as declaring the pandemic being over. Now we have plenty of reliable sources. If it isn't over now, what set of facts or sources would it take for it us to list it as in the past? TocMan (talk) 20:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Why so keen to declare it over? I know several people who caught COVID for the first time this year. One of them died. HiLo48 (talk) 00:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

People still catch and die from H1N1 influenza, but that does not mean the swine flu pandemic is active. I think we should follow the preponderance of sources. TocMan (talk) 03:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Where? HiLo48 (talk) 04:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The majority - I would go so far as to say the vast majority - of sources now talk of the pandemic using the past tense. Wikipedia is now an exception, and that in itself is not good. In the Pandemic article we have this statement: The World Health Organization (WHO) nearest equivalent of "pandemic" is the Public Health Emergency of International Concern, defined as “an extraordinary event which is determined to constitute a public health risk to other States through the international spread of disease and to potentially require a coordinated international response”. The WHO have declared the PHEIC as being over, so that's as close as they're ever going to get to acknowledging that the pandemic is over. I contend that's it's time for Wikipedia to move on, and also regard the pandemic as being over. Pikemaster (talk) 07:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Why do we need to declare anything? Or "regard" anything? Surely we can simply write what you have above. HiLo48 (talk) 07:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it's about whether or not the article should refer to the pandemic as an event that happened in the past, rather than one that's ongoing. Currently it's the latter, as confirmed by the first sentence of the article: "The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is a global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 ...."

Would you want to keep that sentence unchanged for the next 20 years? We wouldn't write in this tense about the Spanish Flu pandemic that ended over 100 years ago. An indeed we don't: "The 1918 flu pandemic, also known as the Great Influenza epidemic or by the common misnomer of the Spanish flu, was an exceptionally deadly global influenza pandemic" Olaf Klischat (talk) 23:56, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with the past tense for various reasons mentioned above. WHO does not officially declare end of pandemics, so there will not be an official end declared by WHO. 2009 swine flu pandemic would be the only exception as far as I know.

The 2009 swine flu pandemic officially ended at the same time as PHEIC. WHO declared it officially over based on known influenza seasonal patterns, which in contrast are not known for the COVID. Previous pandemics in the history did not have an official declared end to my knowledge. They basically ended when public considered it over, and people stopped with a pandemic behaviour, which I believe is a case with vast majority regarding the COVID, not to mention many sources referring to it in the past tense and post-pandemic.

Another reason would be behaviour of virus itself. It seems like hospitalisations and deaths remain stable and at lower levels with a small upticks and downticks rather than big pandemic waves as seen nearly 2 years ago.

As for post-pandemic section, I think it is a good idea, and information mentioned in this and previous posts could be noted there to provide wider understanding regarding post pandemic period. KapSoule (talk) 10:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Interestingly for the Swine Flu pandemic, WHO actually did put out a statement declaring the pandemic over but I'm unsure if that was before, after, or concomitant with the PHEIC ending. TocMan (talk) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Pikemaster here. If a preponderance of sources now refer to the pandemic in past tense, this is enough precedent to switch the article to past tense(due weight). I don't have the time to verify if this is the case. If the word 'was' is inserted into the lead('was a global pandemic'), perhaps a footnote would be the best way to address this given we don't have explicit sourcing to state the end of the pandemic. This may warrant a wider 'current consensus' discussion/note at the top of this talk page, with the rest of the numbered consensus items. SmolBrane (talk) 18:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

OK. Let's do it. Our article on the Spanish flu has a significant section titled Post-pandemic. Given the complex situation surrounding the "Is it over?" question, as soon as we start using past tense in the article, we need a similar section here. HiLo48 (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• I think we can do a post-pandemic section. There should be plenty of RS for this. I think there is not consensus (yet) to change the past tense in the LEAD. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:10, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I also support the use of past tense. It seems to follow the WP:WEIGHT of sources, and a pandemic is in significant part a social phenomenon. As noted above, the WHO does not make declarations of when pandemics end, [2][3] and the closest they have to that as an official declaration is the PHEIC, which did end. Pretty much the only decent source from after that time supporting the pandemic as ongoing is the comment by Maria Van Kerkhove from the June 2 press conference, and that seems more offhand than authoritative. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the immediately making a post-pandemic section, not just in this article but in all country specific ones too. I've already got edits in works for the Australian one. I'm also gonna make a new section here for changing consensus #18 to was. AndrewRG10 (talk) 00:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Given that LEAD summarizes, shouldnt we create a section first? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 01:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes. It will obviously evolve over time, but it's essential to have some detail of how the world has changed, again. HiLo48 (talk) 02:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Time to make a post-pandemic article?

Thanks to AndrewRG10 for crafting the section. It already looks a bit large for this article. Might be time to produce a spinoff article, which the endemic material could be merged into. Some discussion is going on at Talk:Endemic COVID-19. SmolBrane (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I think making such a section and twisting weak sources into saying what they didn't actually say was unwise. The WHO may not make official formal "declarations" about pandemics starting or ending, but they certainly say otherwise whether they are ongoing, and are our best source for that. I have added their comments. Bon courage (talk) 20:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

By "they" you mean individual WHO officials. The WHO as a body cannot call something a pandemic, since, as noted previously, they do not have any official classification for such. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:57, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I oppose this, currently the medical consensus is that Covid-19 is still an active pandemic. It also should be noted that endemic does not mean the opposite of pandemic, it just means it is found in a location. Groble (talk) 05:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

RFC on current consensus #18

Proposing to either strike down or replace Consensus #18 "The first sentence is The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is an ongoing global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)." The purpose of this discussion is to find a consensus mainly surrounding the first line using the past tense 'was' instead of 'is' or ongoing. This is either a new standard first line or to allow for the editor liberty to later decide one. AndrewRG10 (talk) 00:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

It is an ongoing pandemic, so the article should reflect that in its language. Groble (talk) 05:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support Removing I don't imagine there is going to be a lot of edit wars going between was and is. There may be a rouge vandal every few months who insists on it being present tense but I imagine the discussion in the section above will be enough to create a new consensus that the entire article is to refer to it as was, there is no need for the first line to have its own specific consensus. -AndrewRG10 (talk) 00:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support Striking Down however, I do think there is going to be a lot of editor disagreement over this. We have had what appears to be weekly discussions on this talk page about was vs is. Am I permitted to ping the other editors that comment on this topic in the past month or two (both sides of the fence), or does that run afoul of CANVASS? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 01:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  Comment I am inclined to agree with you their are going to be editor disputes. Currently there are more editors throughout the three discussion supporting change, and provided that continues to the end of discussion it would be best for a new consensus to be written, not just about the first line but the entire article. AndrewRG10 (talk) 21:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

• eventually support however retain there's no rush (or need) to change this now...IMO --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I'm concerned about two things. Firstly, the haste with which some editors seem so keen to say it's all over. It's NOT! Is there politics behind this? In truth, it is fading away, but will never be gone. Secondly, the murder of the English language. "Striking down? WTF? Can't we just amend or remove it? HiLo48 (talk) 02:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
  • With all due respect, I take offense to the idea that this has been a rushed process. The discussion gained momentum over two months ago with the end of the PHEIC and a lot of discussion has happened as people change their opinion. This isn't politics, this is just making an observation that very few reliable sources are referring to the pandemic as ongoing. Pandemic can't Never be gone as you said, that is contrary to every pandemic in human history. If you look in the section above, you may see a consensus is being reached that not enough sources refer to the pandemic as ongoing to justify Wikipedia's stance, this is about consensus 18 and changing/removing it in order to be consistent with the paragraph above. I do agree the language isn't right, I have amended my Support statement as such. AndrewRG10 (talk) 03:38, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry. No offence was intended. My response on that aspect was probably intensified by my concerns about the language. I didn't mean that the pandemic can never be gone. Just that the disease can't. The problem is that we live in a world where many still claim that the disease never existed, or was never a pandemic. Unfortunately, it IS political, though not in the way you or I speak about it. I am happy for the tense to change, but not without the Post-pandemic section I wrote about above. And there is still no rush. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  We have the COVID-19 article for the disease in general, akin to influenza. Anything new about the disease that is post-pandemic and not related to the pandemic itself would go there. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:02, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I also haven't seen any rush on this talk page. I have seen a number of editors come here asking the same question every week. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:13, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

it is wrong to say that it is currently an ongoing pandemic. if we don't want to use the verb "was" then we need to find anther neutral sentence that will not say whether it is or not. This is my opinion. ArmorredKnight (talk) 06:03, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Question Am I allowed to notify the editors who have discussed this topic on this talk page over the past month or two? Does that comply with WP:APPNOTE "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)? There have been I recall two or three discussions on exactly this topic on this talk page in the past couple months, it seems they should participate (those for and against). I see these discussions (often not very involved, but things seem to get archived quickly on this talk page). These were found in the last two archives (47 and 48)
  • Talk:COVID-19_pandemic/Archive_48#"Was"_a_pandemic?
  • Talk:COVID-19_pandemic/Archive_48#updating_it_to_"was_a_pandemic"
  • Talk:COVID-19_pandemic/Archive_48#Present_tense
  • Talk:COVID-19_pandemic/Archive_47#End?_5

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I would say it's for the best to ping anyone who has had an active part in the discussion. Those who had lesser involvement in it are definitely wanted but it'd be better to just ping the more actively involved. AndrewRG10 (talk) 05:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I made a bold edit [4] to correct #18 with regard to 'ongoing', since this article has taken the unusual path of straying from the discussed consensus and gaining implicit consensus there. My edit didn't appear in the history here so I wanted to notify editors here. #18 needs to reflect the article in its current state so we can discuss it correctly here. SmolBrane (talk) 05:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Remove per my arguments in the previous talk page section. TocMan (talk) 14:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Remove, clearly hamstringing us in the post-PHEIC world. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

uptick in cases--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps worth noting that the word 'pandemic' never appears in this article. SmolBrane (talk) 02:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

• Remove since RSes are not treating the pandemic as ongoing or present. SmolBrane (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  Except the very best RS's. Like the WHO/Europe director saying last month the the pandemic is "certainly not over". Bon courage (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  Unfortunately as much weight as the WHO has, if every single news article and the vast majority of medical articles are using terms like post-pandemic and refer to the pandemic as over, we cannot in good faith continue to call the pandemic ongoing. It also doesn't help the WHO has made it very clear they cannot and do not declare the beginning and end of pandemics and their recent definition is flawed and in objection to all established definitions of a pandemic (including their own written one).

  We are not keeping this article in present tense for the next 30 years. AndrewRG10 (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  We follow the WP:BESTSOURCES, which is part of NPOV and not negotiable. A single authoritative source overrides an infinity of unreliable ones and for biomedical topics, WHO is as good as it gets. Newpapers and sites, not so much. It is simply not true that "the vast majority of medical articles" are saying the pandemic is over. If COVID-19 is pandemic for 30 years according the best sources, that is what Wikipedia shall say. That editors for some reason don't like this is irrelevant. Bon courage (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  The WHO is one expert organization among many, they do not speak for, nor do they claim to, entire expert fields, and especially on whether something is a pandemic. At the very least if at some point they still say it's ongoing and many more expert bodies or MEDRS have stopped calling it a pandemic or explicitly says it no longer a pandemic, then per due weight it isn't. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  If there are other top-quality MEDRS saying something different, then of course they should be cited. But interpreting sources "non-mentionings" to mean something is WP:OR, and prohibited. Simply reflect the best sources. It seems a number of editors here think they're on some kind of WP:RGW mission, rather than just doing the core job of summarising such sources.. Bon courage (talk) 20:54, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

• Retain The pandemic's not over according to the WHO (especially outside the developed West) and WP:NOR is policy. 4 days ago the WHO said COVID remains a "major threat" and that "some countries continue to report high burdens of COVID-19, including increases in newly reported cases and, more importantly, increases in hospitalizations and deaths". Just because some lazy, medically-unreliable lay-sources in the West refer to the pandemic as over, doesn't mean Wikipedia should. Instead we must follow the WP:BESTSOURCES. Bon courage (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  As noted above, per RS the WHO does not determine when pandemics end. The 4 days ago quote is 100% irrelevant because none of that is inconsistent with it being non-pandemic. And while it's true we follow the best sources, WP:DUE is also a factor. HIV pandemic redirects to Epidemiology of HIV/AIDS and has for ages, and the article does not refer to it as an ongoing pandemic but as an epidemic, despite the existence of a minority of sources claiming otherwise. We are not waiting for universal assent that the pandemic is over, just due weight.

  Why is outside the developed West any different? They do not have any restrictions or exceptionally high deaths either as far as I am aware. Where is the evidence for your contention it is more severe in these places? Many of these countries have younger average populations and therefore a less severe burden of disease.

  The time sensitive nature of claims is also an issue. Suppose years go by, with the WHO only referring to "COVID-19" and not commenting anymore on which "-demic" it is? Because present-tense is time-sensitive, a lack of sufficient weight of sources describing it as ongoing is or will be enough to change it to past tense. A source directly saying "it's over" is not actually necessary. Crossroads ^-talk- 18:22, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  Saying the pandemic is "certainly not over" is somehow not relevant to the pandemic being over you say? huh? As to AIDs, high quality sources refer to it as a pandemic, yes.[5] Your other questions you'd need to address to the WHO. On Wikipedia we follow sources, not the reckonings of editors. Bon courage (talk) 18:35, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that "the WHO does not determine when pandemics end...", but I hope that we can also agree that the WHO is particularly well placed to know whether or not experts believe that a pandemic has ended. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  Re Bon courage, Saying the pandemic is "certainly not over" is somehow not relevant to the pandemic being over you say? huh? - I did not say that, and I don't know how this is supposed to connect to what I said. This is apparently a reference to what the WHO/Europe official said in June, which I was aware of. None of what I said contradicts it.

  As for AIDS, yes, I already stated that some sources call it a pandemic. But most call it something else, like an epidemic, including (in this case) the WHO itself. Therefore, Wikipedia does not call it a pandemic in its own voice.

  Re WhatamIdoing, I hope that we can also agree that the WHO is particularly well placed to know whether or not experts believe that a pandemic has ended - I'm not sure the WHO actually claims to speak for experts in general, let alone that they actually are representative in doing so. Because the WHO is not the authority over whether something is a pandemic or not, we are not obligated to wait for them to say it is not (which may never happen or happen absurdly far in the future) before we stop calling it such. Crossroads ^-talk- 19:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  we are not obligated to wait for them to say it is not (which may never happen or happen absurdly far in the future <-- This @Bon courage @Draken Bowser several months ago a consensus was reached that pandemics status on Wikipedia will be based off of what the Weight of sources state purely because the WHO does not, and cannot declare the beginning and end of pandemics. Both of you seem to be expecting that the WHO will one day come out and declare COVID-19 as a pandemic over. That's never gonna happen. The closer we are ever going to get, as stated by lead WHO officials, is when the next pandemic starts, the last one ends. You are looking at referring to the COVID-19 as an ongoing pandemic for potentially decades with an end date the same day the next pandemic starts.

  That is why months ago it was decided that we would wait for reliable news and medical sources to refer to it as over. That is what the discussion is about, not whether the WHO has got infinite weight against the entirety of the worlds Reliable Media and Medical sources.

  If you do think that most media sources refer to the pandemic as ongoing, please do share your articles, but from what I see the only still referring to it as ongoing are fringe opinion articles. AndrewRG10 (talk) 20:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  This "declaration" thing is a canard. The WHO cannot formally DECLARE pandemic start or ends because such declarations are not within the suite of mechanisms it has been given (unlike PHEIC e.g.). But they certainly say what they think about pandemic status, as multiple cited sources show. Non-MEDRS sources are not reliable for whether there's a pandemic or not, which is WP:BMI: that's just basic. If there are MEDRS sources (beside the WHO) then those are relevant. Let's see them. I am interested in such WP:BESTSOURCES, not the shitty ones that have been pressed into service to advance editorial POV. Bon courage (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  What I am emphasizing is that the WHO is not an exceptional MEDRS that can carry the burden of WP:DUE alone perpetually. And whether or not it is, for present tense and "is" to persist in the Wikipedia article we would need ongoing, continual support in the sources. If for a while there are few or no such sources referring to an event as ongoing, then that event defaults to being in the past due to the nature of the passage of time. Already there have been very few sources referring to it as an ongoing/present-tense pandemic for about 2 months now, an unprecedented occurrence and something that could easily continue - possibly the most likely outcome.

  An analogy could perhaps be drawn with that other big event beginning in 2020, the George Floyd protests. There are zero sources declaring the Floyd protests over (of course; nobody holds that authority), and I'm sure police brutality protests still occasionally include reference to him, but we don't describe them as ongoing because there are essentially no sources on that topic that do. Historical events end whether they are declared over, or they fade away and gradually society agrees they are a "was". Crossroads ^-talk- 23:39, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  then that event defaults to being in the past due to the nature of the passage of time ← nope; classic original research, which is prohibited and which could be used to justify any number of fringe POV-pushing attempts. Please review WP:V - another core policy. I note none of these supposed MEDRS sources which say the pandemic is "over" have been produced; in fact looking at recent MEDRS on COVID-19 like PMID:37481886 we see a reference to the "ongoing COVIS-19 pandemic" right there in the abstract. Bon courage (talk) 05:24, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

  WP:Original research would be referring to something as present tense or ongoing when there are no contemporary sources doing so. To say that something is present-tense is itself a claim needing verification and due weight. So yes, if 6 months or a year from now there are few or no sources referring to Covid as a present-tense pandemic, then it should be referred to as past tense, by RfC if necessary. The general concept to which I refer is a logical necessity - otherwise we would have to refer to any historical event without a "it's over" source as present tense no matter how old, which is clearly absurd.

  The source you link to is a primary source (something you complained about below) and was received by the journal in March 2023, before the end of the PHEIC. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:26, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Retain as long as the WHO and others refer to the pandemic in present tense so shall we. Declaring that COVID-19 is no longer a PHEIC has no bearing on whether the pandemic is still ongoing. Draken Bowser (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

This logic, the same as Bon Courage, in the section above, is flawed. It is not at all WP:V and presumes that we shall follow only one govt organization. If we did that, we just merely be a PR piece for the WHO. We have hundreds of sources we follow, not one. The more RS we follow (in general principle) the better the article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Use the WP:BESTSOURCES. Top-level MEDRS like WHO and not, say, Forbes and WebMD (good grief). Bon courage (talk) 20:14, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The more RS we follow.. No, what Bon courage said. I'm somewhat fascinated by the attempts to subvert premier sources by pretending following them would reduce Wikipedia to a mouthpiece of the WHO et al. Draken Bowser (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

According to this recently added source the WHO has signaled toward the possibility of calling it a pandemic for the next 50 years or more. It's honestly shocking and one wonders on what basis they ever declared any flu pandemic over. I really, really wish a journalist would press them as to what specifically it would take for them to say the pandemic is over akin to past respiratory virus pandemics that are still circulating. We have been in an H1N1 pandemic since 1918 by their logic.

This is why WP:Due weight and WP:RELTIME are so important. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:37, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Please keep your personal shocked POV off this page. WP:NOTFORUM. Bon courage (talk) 20:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

A forever pandemic simply because something hasn't been eradicated is an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Which reliable source says "forever pandemic"? Bon courage (talk) 21:07, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

It's a play on forever war. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

We have no policy that states that WHO is sole form of truth in this matter. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

We have a WP:V and WP:NPOV which means content must be verifiable and represent the most reliable sources. This is not negotiable. The WHO is the most reliable source on the planet for what constitutes a global pandemic. That editors want to omit/contradict it and use Forbes or WebMD instead is just POV-pushing and shows a basic misunderstanding of what an encyclopedia is (as your invocation of Truth™ rather shows). Bon courage (talk) 06:48, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with this statement: "The WHO is the most reliable source on the planet for ____". I dispute the very premise of the argument, so repetition will not change my position. WHO position is essentially a primary source from our perspective and they are pushing their own POV, with an obvious COI in that they want to stay relevant in the public eye and get increased funding and regulatory rights. Few cared about the WHO prior to this, maybe they thought it was a former rock band. I am sure the same argument is being made elsewhere that the US SEC is the most important financial regulator, Microsoft is the most important tech company, Elon Musk is the most important CEO, etc. None of this makes their blog posts the sole point of truth for us here at wikipedia, and while their self promotion we might fine DUE in some cases, we dont put it in wikivoice in the LEDE. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

they want to stay relevant in the public eye and get increased funding ← That's just dumb conspiracism. Wikipedia follows authoritative sources, and has WP:PAGs to identify the relevant ones for biomedicine (WP:MEDRS). Comparing the WHO to an Elon Musk blog has to set a low-point for the day which is going to be hard to beat! Bon courage (talk) 08:16, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Please be civil. Is there a policy that states that WHO is the definative source? Musk is the richest human, Microsoft is the largest software vendor, the SEC probably the most powerful securities regulator. We dont use the blogs of market leaders as definitive single source truth. Thats not how wikipedia works, see WP:5P2, please see "we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view"." Policy pages never trump 5P. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

As 5P2 (which is not policy) says we should be "citing reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the topic is controversial". There is no such thing as "definative source" [sic] but the WHO for global health is an ideal one, per WP:MEDRS - reliable and authoritative. Other quality WP:MEDRS would be welcome. So far, tumbleweed - just some news sources and a desperate attempt to reason away the WHO with conspiracy theories. Bon courage (talk) 08:45, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is 5P is above policy, you seem to argue otherwise. Anyhow, other editors can think for themselves what is true. As for MEDRS, WHO is only mentioned once at the MEDRS article, it is mentioned in WP:MEDSCI section which states "Wikipedia policies on the neutral point of view and not publishing original research demand that we present prevailing medical or scientific consensus, which can be found in recent, authoritative review articles, in statements and practice guidelines issued by major professional medical or scientific societies (for example, the European Society of Cardiology or the Infectious Disease Society of America) and widely respected governmental and quasi-governmental health authorities (for example, AHRQ, USPSTF, NICE, and WHO), in textbooks, or in scholarly monographs." This in no way states that the WHO is the sole source of medical consensus, and in fact is listed in a for example section, containing other options. Your point is that we just go with the WHO alone as the source of ultimate truth continues to fail, despite repetition. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Nobody is saying it is the "sole" usable reliable source. As I say, if there are other MEDRS on this topic (AHRQ, USPSTF, NICE, etc.) then bring them forth. Wikipedia reflects such reliable sources; it doesn't undercut reliable sources with unreliable ones. Bon courage (talk) 10:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty of MEDRS referring to pandemic in past tense:

• JAMA published stating "Background: The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic was a public health crisis affecting medical, social, and psychological wellness."
• Nature published stating "Introduction: The COVID-19 pandemic was a public health emergency that required massive control efforts like the 1918 influenza pandemic, the HIV pandemic, and smallpox eradication."
• UN stating "The COVID-19 pandemic was a public health crisis of unprecedented proportions which often exacerbated existing inequalities and disproportionately affected the most vulnerable groups in society, including migrants."
• ICMRA states "Between 2020 and 2023, the COVID-19 pandemic was a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC), as declared by the World Health Organization (WHO)." Bioethics "The Covid-19 pandemic was a public health emergency."

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Let's see:

1. is a primary source
2. is not Nature but an obscure, non-MEDLINE journal with a passing use of "was" (just as other, better sources make passing use of "ongoing" for the pandemic).
3. is not the "UN' but a copy of some Portuguese migration policy, with the disclaimer "The content of this practice reflects the views of the implementers and does not necessarily reflect the views of the United Nations, the United Nations Network on Migration, and its members". Not MEDRS.
4. does not say the pandemic is over (the emergency is).

Bon courage (talk) 13:02, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bon courage I hate to be a pain, but you're yet to provide any proof that there is more weight suggesting the pandemic is still referred to as ongoing. Yes you've said the WHO does but that idea was settled months ago and it's very clear that isn't going to fly no matter how hard you try. You cannot cherry pick articles and suggest sources that support your opinion hold far more weight than others. You cannot say only MERDS are allowed despite the extensive use of 'lay man' media on this article. You need to balance it all out, maybe even provide us a nice graph.

Start by searching for terms "post-pandemic", "COVID-19" and "pandemic is not over". AndrewRG10 (talk) 20:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like WP:POVSOURCING. Better to read the WP:BESTSOURCES and summarize them rather than "research" content by doing google searches for desired phrases[6] and then pushing whatever random source comes comes to light. MEDRS are for WP:BMI; other sources may of course be used for other aspects. Bon courage (talk) 21:05, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

NPOV results from editors putting forth lists of sources. The argument for us to following WHO (which you argue for) is that the other journals are not MEDRS, not official, primary, etc. It appears most of the other editors here support removing changing the ongoing treatment. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:45, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:45, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

AFAICT the "best sources" on Covid at this time refer simply to "COVID-19" and don't call it a pandemic. It takes cherry-picking to find ones that do. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support Removing WHO declared Covid 19 no longer a public health emergency. Its over. Past tense. Eruditess (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

  They said the emergency is over, but confusing this into the pandemic being over is misinformation. Bon courage (talk) 21:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

  Do any recent pro-present-tense sources specifically define what it would mean for the pandemic to be over? None do, if we follow them we're headed straight for a forever war situation ("no clear conditions that would lead to its conclusion"). Before now sources treated the pandemic as a higher status than the PHEIC, given that it was called such later (March 2020 rather than January), and as largely synonymous with restrictions, overrun hospitals, or the PHEIC itself. The idea that it could still be pandemic despite all things returning to normal seems to have been pulled from nowhere by a few WHO officials after the PHEIC ended. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:34, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

  In fact, here's a source from February 2020 stating the WHO's official position at the time: The World Health Organization no longer uses the term pandemic, but the COVID-19 coronavirus outbreak remains an international emergency that is likely to spread further, a spokesman said on Monday. So, individual WHO officials using the term "pandemic" carries no special weight compared to any other officials or MEDRS, most of whom do not use the term. Compare e.g. [7] Crossroads ^-talk- 23:53, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Retain, and oppose any wording that unequivocally declares it as over in the strongest possible terms. The WP:BESTSOURCES still seem to refer to it overwhelmingly as ongoing; most of the arguments against them, above, seem to essentially be editors trying to substitute their own arguments for what the sources say or preferring statements from weaker sources. We should cover the debate over whether it is over and the positions different organizations have taken, but actually declaring it over requires a consensus among academic sources which does not seem to be present. See eg. discussing this specifically, or It's certainly not true WHO has stated that the COVID pandemic is "over"; they merely stated that its "emergency phase" is over, something that coverage notes - There are no hard and fast rules to determine when a PHEIC is over, says [epidemiologist Salim Abdool] Karim. “We are still very much in a pandemic, we are just in a different stage in which we are no longer seeing large numbers of deaths and pressure on hospitals,” he adds. For Karim, the end of the PHEIC is a recognition that SARS-CoV-2 is no longer an emergency, but it will be around for a long time. On top of this, many of the arguments that people are presenting to assert that it's over (the ones that reference the sources at all; far too many of the arguments above are basically just "well of course its over") are just referencing passing mentions, usually things like a passing mention of "was" or "post-pandemic" in lower-quality sources; whereas there are numerous sources of the highest-quality stating unambiguously that the pandemic is still in progress. Obviously the latter takes precedence. And at an absolute bare minimum, we absolutely cannot use "was" or anything similar implying unambiguously that the pandemic is uncontroversially over in the lead - I think that the highest-quality sources are clear enough that it is still in progress, but it would be absurd to completely ignore those sources or to treat them as WP:FRINGE to the point that what they say can be completely disregarded when they are high-quality experts published in reputable journals. The absolute furthest we could go as a compromise is to say that there is controversy over whether it is over; arguing that it is uncontroversially over to the point where we can state that as fact or that the perspective that it is still in progress is WP:FRINGE is clearly absurd. --Aquillion (talk) 00:38, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Many of these sources are problematic. Sources 1 and 2 both predate the end of the PHEIC. Source 3 is from a very minor journal and uses an WP:EXTRAORDINARY definition in which it will probably not be over until a new pandemic comes along, which is very odd (pandemics can run concurrently, but more often end well before another one occurs). Source 4 is from an MDPI journal, and is therefore of unclear quality. That all said, I think the suggestion to describe the differing opinions as to whether it is over is reasonable. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:12, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Retain. When we make this change, it should be because the best sources available have also done so. There doesn't appear to be any showing above that this has happened. Even with the end of the US public health emergency, the CDC is saying: "As a nation, we now find ourselves at a different point in the pandemic". Aquillion's points below about WP:BALANCE are also persuasive: even if the best sources start to shift on this, we should likely first describe the debate before moving to favor one side of it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:59, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  What is the source for this quote? Crossroads ^-talk- 01:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Here is one place it occurs. XOR'easter (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  That was where I found it. Sorry I didn't link it earlier! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Retain per Aquillion and Firefangledfeathers (as well as wastewater data [8][9][10][11]). The Lancet described the pandemic as "far from over" in a January editorial [12] and does not appear to have changed that stance since. For example, an item published in May [13] wouldn't be more generous than "transitioning out of the emergency phase of the COVID-19 pandemic". Overall, we can't say that the best sources have unambiguously moved past calling it a pandemic; we should expect some variability as different researchers, organizations, etc., apply different definitions. XOR'easter (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  None of the wastewater data sources call that evidence it is still a pandemic; it's therefore irrelevant. Of course the virus will ebb and flow and mutate indefinitely to some extent, like all respiratory viruses. No restrictions have returned, in fact they continue to be lifted (e.g. in L.A. of all places [14]). Crossroads ^-talk- 23:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

We dont use opinion pieces and we dont use editorials, this is far from an RS. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. Consider this statement from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Explanation: Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Why wouldn't we use opinion pieces or editorials (which, BTW, are opinion pieces written by the editors of the publication; they are not a separate thing from opinion pieces) to support the opinions that NPOV tells us to present in the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:05, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I have before seen WP:NOTOPINION referred to when editors attempt to add opinions. It says "Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes", Wikipedia is not the medium for this." I would think this opinion piece, aka editorial (I dont see a difference) seems to put forth the POV that 'the pandemic is ongoing, we must do everything we can to keep it in the news' which means we wikipedia editors dont follow this junk. This kind of opinion piece is essentially WP:SOAP in which the author and/or the organization he represents is advocating for continued interest in the pandemic or funding for its continued study. This source is being used on this talk page essentially as it was intended, for advocacy. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I like the careful way that you have phrased that first sentence, because editors often "refer to" WP:UPPERCASE shortcuts without apparently reading the page that they have linked. NOTOPINION says that editors may not post opinion pieces to Wikipedia themselves – that Wikipedia should not host articles on WhatamIdoing's opinions about COVID-19. The policy does not say that the (properly sourced) opinions of experts, politicians, etc. may not be mentioned as appropriate in encyclopedia articles.

(There are traditionally two types of opinion pieces: the ones written by the publication's own editors, which are called editorials, and the ones written by outsiders, which are called op-eds [because they were published in the newspaper on the page opposite the in-house editorials].) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

References

WHO or who else?

One of the themes in these discussions is "The World Health Organization says...", followed by "but my source says..." and so forth. I wonder if editors might be able to reach an agreement on which sources should be considered important. For example:

1. Is the pandemic over if politicians from major Western democracies say so?
2. Is the pandemic over if newspapers and political magazines say so?
3. Is the pandemic over if one or more national health organizations from Western democracies say so?
4. Is the pandemic over if major international organizations (e.g., WHO or the UN) say so?
5. Is the pandemic over if researchers publish a paper in a major medical journal saying so?
6. Is the pandemic over if one or more of these groups doesn't explicitly say that it's ongoing?

That last question is because a pandemic (from the statistical/epidemiologist viewpoint) is merely an outbreak with geographic reach, and the end of an outbreak, no matter how local or how widespread it is, is something one can't see on the day it happens. You can only calculate the end point afterwards. So there is always an in-between time in which an outbreak is actually over, but it can't yet be proven to be over. In that space, do we say "it's over", and hope that we aren't going to be proven wrong later? Or do we try to avoid the question, perhaps by re-writing "The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is a global pandemic..." into something like "The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, started in 2019 and became a global pandemic in early 2020..."? Or say that it is still ongoing? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Something that I lightly touched on above but which bears mentioning here is the WP:RS requirement to represent both sides of an ongoing controversy according to WP:BALANCE. I'm not convinced (per above) that there's enough debate among highest-quality sources to change the current consensus, but even if people can produce sufficiently high-quality sources to argue that there's no longer agreement saying that the pandemic is in progress, we should probably consider the possibility that we have to simply describe it as an ongoing debate. Stating in the article voice that it's over wouldn't simply require "some sources say so", it requires that there be so few sources saying anything else that that position be marginal or even WP:FRINGE. I don't see how anyone can reach that conclusion currently. Or, in other words - it's extremely unlikely that we will be able to go straight from "the pandemic is in progress" to "the pandemic is over". It'd require that almost every point you said be true (or, more properly, that any voices saying otherwise are noticeably lower in weight.) --Aquillion (talk) 00:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

  Well, I'm sure that we all hope that there will come a day when the previous consensus is deemed out of date. What kind(s) of sources would you need, at that hypothetical future date, to feel comfortable changing the article to say "The pandemic is over" or "The pandemic likely ended in 2023"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

You raise good points, but I'd note that the claim that the pandemic is ongoing (or, is an "is" rather than "was") is itself a positive claim needing to follow WP:V and WP:DUE. So I think the burden of proof is really quite the other way around; e.g.:

1. Is the pandemic ongoing solely if WHO officials say so?
2. For how long is such a statement sufficient to refer to it in present tense? 3 months? 3 years? 30 years? Forever?
3. What if WHO officials say it is but equally many or more experts and expert bodies say it isn't pandemic anymore?

etc.

And I would say no, WHO officials are not alone sufficient, as the WHO is not the official arbiter of this matter, as numerous sources make clear. Sources discussing COVID-19 like the CDC and not calling it a pandemic in present tense is meaningful. And even if we do grant that a WHO official is alone sufficient, such a statement cannot verify a time-sensitive claim in perpetuity. I'd say 6 months is a generous length of time before it would be considered outdated.

And as for countervailing experts, they do exist. Here is "one of the most cautious" German virologists calling it over, here is the South Carolina Department of Health calling it endemic and stating that other states and the federal government have done the same, this says a Finnish health official described it as endemic, and the the Netherlands' Outbreak Management Team said the pandemic ended and it's endemic.

Now, as you note and as Aquillion suggested above while I was writing this, one possibility is to make it more ambiguous and describe that sources differ. This would be akin to some degree to the epidemiology of HIV/AIDS (which some call a pandemic but the WHO calls an "epidemic") or seventh cholera pandemic (which the WHO calls an ongoing pandemic but many disagree). All in all this seems like it could be a fruitful route, at least for now. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm looking at this less from the POV of "do we have the sources today?" and more from the POV of "which sources would matter, whenever we get them?" You seem to imply that the WHO is a valid source (just not the official arbiter, because AFAIK no entity has ever been the official arbiter of pandemics). Who/what else is a valid source? Who/what else isn't a valid source?

Perhaps a more basic way of asking this is: In your opinion, is the existence or absence of a pandemic a type of scientific/biomedical information (in which case, we'd want to prioritize the views of scientists and medical organizations), or is it a type of news/history/political information (in which case, we'd want to prioritize the views of politicians and journalists)?

I am a little concerned about the sources you supply as examples. The German virologist is quoted and then immediately followed by an equally qualified colleague saying that the pandemic isn't over yet but will probably be over soon. The South Carolina page does not say that COVID is endemic; it merely says that they have "begun treating COVID-19 as an endemic virus", which is not at all the same thing. The Finnish piece also says that "the situation in Finland differs from that in the rest of Europe", and it's entirely possible for a pandemic to exist in the world but not be affecting some small countries, so that doesn't actually say that the pandemic is over globally. The same complication applies to the Dutch source: "is now at an endemic phase in the Netherlands" – not in the whole world.

But let us leave the specific examples to one side, and tell me: What would be a very strong type of source, if someone wanted to convince the regular editors of this page that the pandemic was/wasn't ongoing? What's your imaginary ideal, for that day when [we hope!] the pandemic can be declared to really, truly, undoubtedly be over? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding an imaginary ideal, since the WHO called it a pandemic well after the PHEIC was first declared, my hope was that they wouldn't claim it was somehow still the former despite not being the latter. Yet, here we are. I think an ideal source would be the WHO themselves eventually deciding to make a statement anyway, or other prominent agencies, but why would any of them? None of them are the arbiters of it, and it in itself makes no difference in policy. But that would be ideal.

Another strong type of source would be a scientific survey of epidemiologists or other experts on the question, but this too is unlikely to materialize.

I'd be more interested in hearing from those who strongly support it being too soon to move the descriptor into past tense - what they think is sufficient to do so, and/or how much time would need to pass before existing statements it is ongoing 'expire'. For instance, if we find ourselves here a year from now, and like the last couple of months nobody really calls it an ongoing or present-tense pandemic again, what then?

I think both biomedical and society sources are relevant here, and this is de facto the case for the current article anyway. I also think some of the above-presented sources were too quickly dismissed, and I expect that national bodies comment mainly on their nation - the idea that something could be simultaneously pandemic and endemic doesn't seem to exist in reliable sources as far as I know.

Nobody officially declared past pandemics over, certainly not MEDRS, and I don't expect the same for this one, because they have no reason to or mechanism in place for that. (The 2009 Swine Flu pandemic was an exception. [15]) We're probably just going to get an increasing drip of sources, MEDRS and otherwise, nonchalantly referring to it in the past tense, and a decreasing drip of sources calling it ongoing or present-tense. Even if not today, eventually Wikipedia would become an extreme outlier if the text remains unchanged, which is bad. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

(od) In re since the WHO called it a pandemic well after the PHEIC was first declared, my hope was that they wouldn't claim it was somehow still the former despite not being the latter:

It sounds like you have been assuming that the event would work like this:

[Public health emergency .........]
   [Pandemic...............]

or perhaps that the PHEIC and pandemic would end simultaneously. I think I've been assuming it would work like this:

[Public health emergency .........]
   [Pandemic...................................]

That is, I've always assumed that if the pandemic lasted longer than a few months, the situation would stop being "an emergency" (e.g., an extreme situation requiring new and different behaviors) before it stopped being "a pandemic". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:57, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

This source says that politicians and government agencies talking about "living with COVID" and "managing COVID as if it were endemic" signal "not the end of the pandemic agenda but they do signal the end of the state of exception and elite panic". This aligns with my impression of the PHEIC's end: it is the end of "the state of exception", not the end of the pandemic per se. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

On adding an official RfC tag (August 5)

XOR'easter, I don't think the RfC tag should have been added (would have said "restored", but looking in the history it doesn't look to have ever been there). The OP's prompt is worded ambiguously, seemingly at times being outright about whether to describe it in past tense, but in other parts being merely about replacing the old consensus item and leaving it as "editor liberty" afterward. I'd rather this be treated as a preliminary discussion and an RfC held off on until (A) more time has passed and the state of sources in the months following the end of the PHEIC becomes clearer, and (B) that when asked it clearly and directly be about "should it be described in past tense?". Crossroads ^-talk- 00:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC) (forgot to sign earlier, was commented 21:59 5 August)

I agree with it being added (well done XOR'easter)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 22:14, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

COVID-19 pandemic deaths and cases

This is a discussion for the entirety of the COVID-19 Wiki.

I'm proposing that the main reference to cases and deaths on all COVID-19 pages should be the estimates from reliable sources. This is because official counts are a vast underestimate, many countries have stopped reporting, many databases have stopped collecting and most importantly to maintain consistency with how we count deaths for every other pandemic on wiki. I think in the rare cases they are used we should count them only to May 5 2023. I hate using hard dates for the pandemic which is why utilizing the current and future estimates from WHO and other medical sources is what I'm proposing should be the sole way forward. AndrewRG10 (talk) 08:08, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

We might want both. "Ruritania claims a mere 17 deaths as their official count, but outside experts estimate that COVID-19 accounted for 300,000 excess deaths in that country during the first three years of the pandemic." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:57, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this needs to be fixed. The whole ongoing shtick of "as of current day, Y cases and Z deaths have occurred" is clearly false precision nowadays. There are probably much better sources estimating things like what percentage of the world has been infected, what percentage infected multiple times, and how many have died, all of which are higher than the "precise" numbers. Even if those estimates are somewhat older than the day by day stuff, the fact they take into account more than just official tests and such suggests they are more likely to be correct. There may also be competing estimates by different research groups which should be taken into account to create a range. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Current situation for COVID 19

Since WHO still does not consider Pandmeic it’s self over, can you please change the dates section for COVID 19 to 2019-present? Fx3453 (talk) 09:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

should you be referring to the infobox dates , those are per PHEIC (WHO)...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you people sure that COVID-19 is gone?

I have a friend of mine who gets the confusing with this news about COVID-19 is gone, but in some of countries still wearing a masks.

Please contact to this topic. If the COVID-19 is still ongoing. 2001:FB1:31:6275:F126:3D2C:7DA8:7653 (talk) 10:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Perhaps the article doesn't explain this well enough.

COVID-19 (the infection) will likely exist for the rest of our lives. But – you know that certain diseases are more common during certain times of year? For example, in warm climates, there is more malaria and dengue when it's been raining (because there are more mosquitoes), and in Europe, influenza mostly happens in the winter. People get these diseases year-round, but they mostly happen at one time. It's kind of the same thing with the COVID-19 pandemic: A lot more people were sick in 2020 and 2021. A lot fewer people are sick now. It's still around, but it's not as bad. This means that the disease still exists (=some people get sick) but the pandemic (=many people worldwide get sick) might not still exist.

You could compare it to an Influenza pandemic: some years, influenza is a big pandemic. Some years influenza is the normal amount. COVID-19 started as a huge pandemic. Maybe it is settling into a normal amount.

As for the masks, they protect against a lot of diseases. Some people wore them even before COVID-19 existed, so of course those people still wear them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

well...New variant EG.5...Covid-19 cases and hospitalizations go up...US, Ireland, France, the UK, Japan and China--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

COVID pandemic is officially over in the U.S., excess-deaths data show

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/covid-pandemic-is-officially-over-in-the-u-s-data-on-excess-deaths-show-96331698 Fewer Americans died in March than would be expected in a normal year ArmorredKnight (talk) 05:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Neither you nor that journalist seem to know what "officially" means. HiLo48 (talk) 05:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Full Fact and Science Based Medicine

Firstly, the dialogue between WHO and Full Fact seems undue since the following sentence acknowledges that WHO doesn't declare pandemics over. So why would we include the comment?

The Full Fact article content states that “this led several media outlets to incorrectly report that this meant the pandemic was "over"”, but three days later on May 8. Japan did change the legal status of COVID to common infectious diseases. Further, Steven Novella, the executive editor of Science Based Medicine wrote an editorial [16] published two days later that stated that [The end of the PHEIC] “brings to an end a more than 3 year global pandemic” and “COVID is now more of an endemic infection, like the flu, which is exactly what most experts predicted would happen (once it became established). We are now living with COVID rather than trying to live through COVID.” Joe Biden said that the pandemic was over last September “We still have a problem with Covid. We’re still doing a lot of work on it. But the pandemic is over.” [17]

I think this section could use a more neutral POV, and editors can discuss whether Full Fact has enough reliability to be sourced here instead of a more robust source like SBM. SmolBrane (talk) 15:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Full Fact is just clarifying the WHO's POV, not making a declaration of their own. SBM's view could add a bit of weight I suppose to the viewpoint that it is over, but in general it isn't a huge authority on this topic. There are more authoritative epidemiologists and bodies mentioned above, but most seem to not be commenting on it. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)